Reply to: A dangerous, unpredictable precedent for the future

[meridian]

Agree with all of this, a tiny bit of common sense could have made all the difference. Trying to make any sort of deal within the Tory Party Cabinet is akin to herding cats, and anything which will cost them both money and humiliation is going to be nigh on impossible. Appealing to the hard-liners on both sides is going to get you nowhere.

FTFY.

Doing a deal is the easy bit - there are several options available, we just need to choose one.

[Mordac]

No... the vote was intended to shut Tory Eurosceptics up and weaken Ukip. It backfired dramatically (from Cameron's point of view).

Once it had gone through, if a national, cross-party government had been set up, to deal with one of the most important events to happen in UK history, perhaps something that satisfied the majority of "the people" could have been put together. That majority made up of moderate remainers (perhaps 48%) and moderate brexiters (perhaps 52%).

Reversal of Brexit and Hard Brexit are both minority positions.

Agree with all of this, a tiny bit of common sense could have made all the difference. Trying to make any sort of deal with the EU is akin to herding cats, and anything which will cost them both money and humiliation is going to be nigh on impossible. Appealing to the hard-liners on both sides is going to get you nowhere.

[NotAllThere]

If instead of voting to leave we voted to ask the government to put together a decent deal we want from the EU if we did leave then absolutely nothing would have happened.

The vote forced the hand to try and do something.

No... the vote was intended to shut Tory Eurosceptics up and weaken Ukip. It backfired dramatically (from Cameron's point of view).

Once it had gone through, if a national, cross-party government had been set up, to deal with one of the most important events to happen in UK history, perhaps something that satisfied the majority of "the people" could have been put together. That majority made up of moderate remainers (perhaps 48%) and moderate brexiters (perhaps 52%).

Reversal of Brexit and Hard Brexit are both minority positions.

[meridian]

1- Fair point, the EU don't care about the plebs, God forbid that they should have a say. Look at the inconvenience it caused last time.

2- They certainly don't want to be unemployed former politicians, which most of them would be eventually if we remain in the EU. We'll need a few of course, to run the things Brussels can't be bothered with. Education is a bit of a nightmare, they'll probably let us keep that.

Yes, exactly. Look at the inconvenience. And for what, for the vast majority of people? What practical benefit?

Meanwhile the ones that have to shoulder that inconvenience and cost (businesses, politicians) are the ones that are getting slated for having a view that, on balance, they would prefer not to leave.

Probably an analogy here about the arsonist complaining that the fire brigade are turning up to put the fire out.

[Mordac]

A decent deal according to who?

Personally, I believe there should have been two referendums, with the public invited to neither of them:

- referendum on the future trade relations, open only to company directors of companies with turnover (the turnover is only there to prevent people opening companies just for a vote). Nobody else has skin in the game, why should Joe and Jane working in a call centre get to decide whether U.K. Plc has an FTA or not?

- referendum on the political structure, open only to MPs and HoL. All the Brexiters complaining that they want laws made in the U.K., but nobody asked the politicians first whether that was what they wanted.

1- Fair point, the EU don't care about the plebs, God forbid that they should have a say. Look at the inconvenience it caused last time.

2- They certainly don't want to be unemployed former politicians, which most of them would be eventually if we remain in the EU. We'll need a few of course, to run the things Brussels can't be bothered with. Education is a bit of a nightmare, they'll probably let us keep that.

[meridian]

If instead of voting to leave we voted to ask the government to put together a decent deal we want from the EU if we did leave then absolutely nothing would have happened.

The vote forced the hand to try and do something.

A decent deal according to who?

Personally, I believe there should have been two referendums, with the public invited to neither of them:

- referendum on the future trade relations, open only to company directors of companies with turnover (the turnover is only there to prevent people opening companies just for a vote). Nobody else has skin in the game, why should Joe and Jane working in a call centre get to decide whether U.K. Plc has an FTA or not?

- referendum on the political structure, open only to MPs and HoL. All the Brexiters complaining that they want laws made in the U.K., but nobody asked the politicians first whether that was what they wanted.

[original PM]

As long as you wear your cloth cap lad.

Exactly this. Though might not have left just yet, and least a workable plan would have been in place.

If instead of voting to leave we voted to ask the government to put together a decent deal we want from the EU if we did leave then absolutely nothing would have happened.

The vote forced the hand to try and do something.

[NotAllThere]

I thought I'd try standing on one leg with the other wrapped behind my head whilst wearing a blindfold and two Yorkshire terriers as nipple clamps

As long as you wear your cloth cap lad.

If only someone had thought of that after the referendum in 2016 we may have actually left the EU by now and most MPs and most of the UK populace could be on board

Exactly this. Though might not have left just yet, and least a workable plan would have been in place.

[BlasterBates]

It looks to me like a long A50 extension will now happen in order to kick Brexit into the long grass, which will give MPs ample opportunity to debate and come to some sort of compromise.

[Mordac]

Or, and I know this is a novel idea, whoever gets into power (whether with a majority, or a minority working with other parties) should work across the house to get the best deal for the UK that can be supported by the majority in the house. Maybe, and again I know, a novel idea, stop pandering to the extreme views as that will not get the vote of the house when it comes to brexit.

Wow, you know what, that could just work!! If only someone had thought of that after the referendum in 2016 we may have actually left the EU by now and most MPs and most of the UK populace could be on board

Instead, the Tories have chosen division as their tactic. Unfortunately they've upset moderates on both sides and haven't even convinced their own extremists

May has united the country and Parliament. Everyone thinks her treaty is a sack of sh!te, albeit for different reasons.
I presume she thought she could tempt the remainers by threatening "no deal" and the ERG by threatening "no Brexit". As disastrous strategies go, that's right up there with the Charge of the Light Brigade. I agree May needs to go, and now, but I'm not sure anyone wants to take her place (including Corbyn). Everyone seems to want her to clean up her own mess, although quite how she can do that now is anyone's guess.

Edit - I'm singling out May, as opposed to the Tories as a whole, as plenty on both sides have called her out for the way she's been running things.

[original PM]

Or, and I know this is a novel idea, whoever gets into power (whether with a majority, or a minority working with other parties) should work across the house to get the best deal for the UK that can be supported by the majority in the house. Maybe, and again I know, a novel idea, stop pandering to the extreme views as that will not get the vote of the house when it comes to brexit.

Wow, you know what, that could just work!! If only someone had thought of that after the referendum in 2016 we may have actually left the EU by now and most MPs and most of the UK populace could be on board

Instead, the Tories have chosen division as their tactic. Unfortunately they've upset moderates on both sides and haven't even convinced their own extremists

Indeed - sadly not convinced the other lot would have done any better.

I think where you perfectly well presented point falls apart is that it assumes those in power actually give a damn about anything other than being in power.

And more and more that is not demonstrated and to be fair they do not even try and hide that fact anymore so at least they are honest in their dishonesty.

[Whorty]

What's the point in voting? Parliament will ignore the result and carry on doing their own thing...

Or, and I know this is a novel idea, whoever gets into power (whether with a majority, or a minority working with other parties) should work across the house to get the best deal for the UK that can be supported by the majority in the house. Maybe, and again I know, a novel idea, stop pandering to the extreme views as that will not get the vote of the house when it comes to brexit.

Wow, you know what, that could just work!! If only someone had thought of that after the referendum in 2016 we may have actually left the EU by now and most MPs and most of the UK populace could be on board

Instead, the Tories have chosen division as their tactic. Unfortunately they've upset moderates on both sides and haven't even convinced their own extremists

[Mordac]

Interesting.

which way are you all gonna vote?

What's the point in voting? Parliament will ignore the result and carry on doing their own thing...

[TestMangler]

I thought I'd try standing on one leg with the other wrapped behind my head whilst wearing a blindfold and two Yorkshire terriers as nipple clamps

probably one of your more sensible suggestions when it comes to politics.

[Yorkie62]

Interesting.

which way are you all gonna vote?

I thought I'd try standing on one leg with the other wrapped behind my head whilst wearing a blindfold and two Yorkshire terriers as nipple clamps