Reply to: Supermarkets slam "food stockpiling" suggestion by government.

[vetran]

Excellent finds, does this mean you accept that you were wrong?
Given that your quotes are:
"the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours"
"the search for peace"

Neither of those say that the EU caused (past tense) peace, or that it is responsible for peace in Europe.

They both clearly state a desire going forward, not a claim from the past.

OK so now we can agree the EU in 60 years has had NO effect on peace in Europe and is proven to be completely powerless to do so!

Glad we cleared that up, can we avoid suggesting that when you want to remain!

[WTFH]

Hmm

From the horses mouth not some other part like a remainer!

https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...y/1945-1959_en

https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commenta...ope_at_60_7254

Excellent finds, does this mean you accept that you were wrong?
Given that your quotes are:
"the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours"
"the search for peace"

Neither of those say that the EU caused (past tense) peace, or that it is responsible for peace in Europe.

They both clearly state a desire going forward, not a claim from the past.

[vetran]

The EU was formed after WWII. There was not a Europe-wide war going on at the time. The EU did not claim (neither has AtW or anyone apart from you) that it is the cause of peace, or that it was responsible for ending some war that was taking place at the time it was founded. - well duh
Having a desire for peace is not the same as claiming to have caused peace.
Having a desire for peace is not the same as claiming to be responsible for peace.

Hmm

From the horses mouth not some other part like a remainer!

https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...y/1945-1959_en

A peaceful Europe – the beginnings of cooperation
The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace.

https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commenta...ope_at_60_7254

The EU has always been a peace project. It started out as one, born from the ashes of war on the continent, and its supreme goal still is to prevent the outbreak of hostilities among and against Europeans. Today’s European Union may seem like a market place, a granter of subsidies, and an experiment in governance. But at its core Europe is still the search for peace – it just took a 60 year detour.

we just need an EU Army & political wing

While looking back on the past 60 years since the Treaties of Rome, political leaders should stare their unfulfilled mission plain in the face. Europe needs political integration, including a security union, to strengthen its cohesion. The layers of global order are weakening while centrifugal forces in European politics become stronger.

What European integration is to the Europeans, and what it could be to the world, needs more than celebration of anniversaries. It is up to those who believe in the peace project to take the initiative and move ahead.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2...d-peace-europe

hmmm

[WTFH]

so they are intertwined, the EU made a promise that peace would happen. The average EU supporter believes the EU made peace in Europe happen and that they were responsible for it.

The EU was formed after WWII. There was not a Europe-wide war going on at the time. The EU did not claim (neither has AtW or anyone apart from you) that it is the cause of peace, or that it was responsible for ending some war that was taking place at the time it was founded.
Having a desire for peace is not the same as claiming to have caused peace.
Having a desire for peace is not the same as claiming to be responsible for peace.

[vetran]

Getting a bit worked up, Old Bean.

Here's what AtW said:
The main promise was lack of another major war in European theatre

Here's what he didn't say:
"The EU caused peace in Europe"

Here's what he didn't say:
"The EU is responsible for Europe wide peace"

So, why do you claim he said those things?

promise
ˈprɒmɪs/Submit
noun
1.
a declaration or assurance that one will do something or that a particular thing will happen.
"what happened to all those firm promises of support?"

cause
kɔːz/Submit
verb
past tense: caused; past participle: caused
make (something, especially something bad) happen

responsible
rɪˈspɒnsɪb(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.
"the cabinet minister responsible for Education"
synonyms: in charge of, in control of, at the helm of, accountable for, liable for, charged with; More
2.
being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
"Gooch was responsible for 198 of his side's 542 runs"

so they are intertwined, the EU made a promise that peace would happen. The average EU supporter believes the EU made peace in Europe happen and that they were responsible for it.

[WTFH]

I will add the rest of the post as you seem to have got confused again, I wish you & spooter would remember that if it has taps its not a toilet!

FTFY

Getting a bit worked up, Old Bean.

Here's what AtW said:

The main promise was lack of another major war in European theatre

Here's what he didn't say:
"The EU caused peace in Europe"

Here's what he didn't say:
"The EU is responsible for Europe wide peace"

So, why do you claim he said those things?

[vetran]

I will add the rest of the post as you seem to have got confused again, I wish you & spooter would remember that if it has taps its not a toilet!

The main promise was lack of another major war in European theatre

ah the EU caused peace in Europe fantasy.

Strange most sensible people believe nuclear weapons stopped that. Even Trump & Putin are nice to people with them.

Luckily the EU has sat by while we have Genocide in the Balkans and they like to support beating of voters.

However the EU tulips itself when Vlad the invader farts.

Hey, Old Bean, did you get an F in English Comprehension in your CSEs?

I did not say the EU "caused" peace in Europe. You put that post up. - No AtW did which is why I quoted him in my post, you misread it and assumed it was directed at you = 0 points.
I pointed out the difference between "caused" and "the result of the desire to maintain". - you posted some drivel having misunderstood the first post , I pointed out the EU's desire wasn't particularly strong as they have failed to intervene in any European conflict = 0 points
You now change "caused" to "responsible for". Again, not what I said, but you and the other Wailers will ignore the truth, instead wanting to force feed the rest of us with your zealotry. - I'm not the one who against all facts continues to suggest the EU had any significant part in preserving world peace. = 0 points

Either you are insane, inept or a liar. You certainly post like you hate the truth. - which is why I quote references and you insult people one of us likes to do research the other to post bile = 0 points

FTFY

[WTFH]

And as usual with Brexiters when faced with the truth, they change the argument and change their words trying to drum up support for the lies.

[Yorkie62]

Quote Originally Posted by Mordac View Post

,,,
20th century: The Germans tried to take over Europe (twice), and the British teamed up with the French in giving the Germans a good slapping (twice)...

Got an F in your GCSE history, did you?

Yes we all know it was the good old USA who saved the day.

[NotAllThere]

,,,
20th century: The Germans tried to take over Europe (twice), and the British teamed up with the French in giving the Germans a good slapping (twice)...

Got an F in your GCSE history, did you?

[Mordac]

Big difference between “caused” (Daily Wailer) and “was the result of the desire to maintain”.
Very big difference. I believe you’d call it a straw man, or some such twaddle if someone else had deliberately and in full knowledge that they were lying and twisting words had come out with it.

The EU was brought about after the end of WWII, after people in the UK and other countries worked together to defeat an evil right wing regime who felt that one race, one group of people should be the only ones allowed to rule, and that anyone who wasn’t of that race was inferior.

...but you can deny that if it fits the DW belief system better.

"desire to maintain" sounds good in practice, but when the sh*t hit the fan in the former Yugoslavia, the EU had a meeting whilst NATO sorted it out.

A quick potted history of the last two hundred years of European history:
19th century: The French tried to take over Europe, and the British teamed up with the Germans in giving the French a good slapping.
20th century: The Germans tried to take over Europe (twice), and the British teamed up with the French in giving the Germans a good slapping (twice).
After this, the French and the Germans decided neither could do it on their own, so they decided to team up and give the British a good slapping. Hence the EU was born.*


*It's called "satire" and you'll find it in a dictionary, if you can be arsed to look...

[WTFH]

ah the EU caused peace in Europe fantasy.

Big difference between “caused” (Daily Wailer) and “was the result of the desire to maintain”.
Very big difference. I believe you’d call it a straw man, or some such twaddle if someone else had deliberately and in full knowledge that they were lying and twisting words had come out with it.

The EU was brought about after the end of WWII, after people in the UK and other countries worked together to defeat an evil right wing regime who felt that one race, one group of people should be the only ones allowed to rule, and that anyone who wasn’t of that race was inferior.

...but you can deny that if it fits the DW belief system better.

YMMV but suggesting the EU is responsible for Europe wide peace is raising a Bulltulip Man and anyone who tries to raise it has less IQ than AssGuru's hamster after the lobotomy.

Hey, Old Bean, did you get an F in English Comprehension in your CSEs?

I did not say the EU "caused" peace in Europe. You put that post up.
I pointed out the difference between "caused" and "the result of the desire to maintain".
You now change "caused" to "responsible for". Again, not what I said, but you and the other Wailers will ignore the truth, instead wanting to force feed the rest of us with your zealotry.

Either you are insane, inept or a liar. You certainly post like you hate the truth.

[PurpleGorilla]

There is no promised land, Dorothy. Who promised you that?

[PurpleGorilla]

So your argument is that the Germans supported by the French & Italians suddenly felt bad about trying to rule Europe by force for millennia and got together to sing Kumbaya in taxpayer funded five star + accommodation rather than invade other countries. This is the basis for decades of peace in Europe (excepting the localised mass slaughter of people in parts of Europe that the EU did feck all to challenge).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icts_in_Europe

note how many wars there are in Europe post 1951.


I prefer the "Capital of Glass" theory where politicians suddenly realised that they could no longer send the underclasses to war and avoid the consequences when most opponents could obliterate their capital in seconds and also wipe out the politician's country seats. Until we have off world sanctuaries or a way of avoiding Nuclear consequences for the ruling classes it will probably continue to be local skirmishes.

YMMV but suggesting the EU is responsible for Europe wide peace is raising a Bulltulip Man and anyone who tries to raise it has less IQ than AssGuru's hamster after the lobotomy.

We can see that the appetite for slaughter was not stopped Europeans just fought proxy wars where people didn't have nuclear capability.

I have always found the recipe for peace is "Walk quietly and carry a feck off big stick."

Indeed.

Let’s not forget we effectively disarmed Germany after WW2 and occupied it with huge divisions in Western Germany during the Cold War, armed with everything - including tactical nukes.

I think that helped maintain the peace a smidge.

Just a smidge...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_of_the_Rhine

[meridian]

Being in the EU hasn’t brought us to the promised land though has it?

There is no promised land, Dorothy. Who promised you that?