Reply to: 10 days...

[stek]

We should get Sinn Fein candidates in all UK and Irish constituencies and elect them, and let them sort that out.

[BrilloPad]

A hard border and I'm expecting civil unrest.

The only thing I can see is another GE and a hung parliament.

The electorate are right to make politicians of all British parties suffer because they are all fecking liars.

As long as Tory and Labour suffer, then great.

The UK has to get away from the 2 party system.

[PurpleGorilla]

It doesn't even need to be a firm decision from HMG to pass into December. There are a limited number of options available (SM+CU; SM only; CU only; no deal) - the govt just needs to list them out along with what the proposed solution would be for each of them.

Unfortunately, even listing out the possible solutions would lead to a split in the cabinet, resignations, mutiny, then probably a GE. So yes, I agree with you there.

Corbyn I think has bigger plans. Sit it out until Brexit splits the Tories. He's starting to realise that, despite his social leanings and aversion to the EU, a hard Brexit will hurt the working class more than the toffs. He just needs to figure out a way to explain it to the electorate in a way that doesn't get him branded a traitor by the right-wing rags (which in itself is a dreadful way for them to behave), and he'll step in and put a halt to it. Labour have no answers to what a successful Brexit looks like, either, so there's little chance they'll carry on with it if they can help it. In my opinion...

I agree with this, but I would just say that all labour need to do is stick with the plan of remaining in the CU and SM.

[WTFH]

Look at the bad old days, despite the Troubles everyone crosses the border Willy Nilly.

During The Troubles the longest you had to queue to cross the border at a major crossing was about 15 minutes. If you got pulled over for a search you'd be there longer.

The longest delays for crossings was during the foot & mouth crisis, when every car got disinfected.

[AtW]

The politicians of all British parties are right to make the electorate suffer because they are all fecking mugs.

FTFY

[SueEllen]

It’s deeper than that, Alyosha, the ties between us are ingrained, Ive been driving North South all weekend and so have thousands of others, there is no way it’ll work. Look at the bad old days, despite the Troubles everyone crosses the border Willy Nilly.

Half my family are Irish, and it always been the same, freedom of movement.

I understand what your saying but I know any hard border is unworkable.

A hard border and I'm expecting civil unrest.

The only thing I can see is another GE and a hung parliament.

The electorate are right to make politicians of all British parties suffer because they are all fecking liars.

[AtW]

I understand what your saying but I know any hard border is unworkable.

Brexit is unworkable

Yet, we are going to get it.

Only followed by close integration into EU ...

[stek]

Crossing freely does not mean no border check - it means having right to cross without being denied entry, queuing for 12 hours got nothing to do with this right.

Hard Brexit is the only possible Brexit - given that HMG is ready to sacrifice the golden egg hen (the City) it's hard to imagine they give two tulips about NI

It’s deeper than that, Alyosha, the ties between us are ingrained, Ive been driving North South all weekend and so have thousands of others, there is no way it’ll work. Look at the bad old days, despite the Troubles everyone crosses the border Willy Nilly.

Half my family are Irish, and it always been the same, freedom of movement.

I understand what your saying but I know any hard border is unworkable.

[eek]

On a plus side Ireland will be able to join Shengen zone

Entering Schengen or in fact leaving it is one of the nicest things about schipol airport.

[AtW]

On a plus side Ireland will be able to join Shengen zone

[eek]

Corbyn’s 20+ year record in Parliament clearly points to him being a hardcore Eurosceptic in the same mould as Benn and Skinner, but he seems willing to put that aside, to a point. Reneging on Brexit altogether would be a very different matter though - they’d lose too many seats in the North, and that calculus won’t change (there’s no “explaining it to them”) - which presumably leaves EEA. But you’re right that Labour is equally engaged in fantasy politics with their “a” customs union BS. They're only getting away with it because they aren’t being properly tested.

+1. Labour would keep its urban parliamentary seats no matter how anti-EU the party is. Those voters have no where else to turn as clearly they didn't switch back to the Lib Dems at the last election. Hence Labour needs to vote Brexit to keep the northern seats that were expected to switch to the Tories in the last election and didn't quite do so....

[jamesbrown]

Corbyn I think has bigger plans. Sit it out until Brexit splits the Tories. He's starting to realise that, despite his social leanings and aversion to the EU, a hard Brexit will hurt the working class more than the toffs. He just needs to figure out a way to explain it to the electorate in a way that doesn't get him branded a traitor by the right-wing rags (which in itself is a dreadful way for them to behave), and he'll step in and put a halt to it. Labour have no answers to what a successful Brexit looks like, either, so there's little chance they'll carry on with it if they can help it. In my opinion...

Corbyn’s 20+ year record in Parliament clearly points to him being a hardcore Eurosceptic in the same mould as Benn and Skinner, but he seems willing to put that aside, to a point. Reneging on Brexit altogether would be a very different matter though - they’d lose too many seats in the North, and that calculus won’t change (there’s no “explaining it to them”) - which presumably leaves EEA. But you’re right that Labour is equally engaged in fantasy politics with their “a” customs union BS. They're only getting away with it because they aren’t being properly tested.

[AtW]

I know, I was making the point that a hard border would hinder the right of British and Irish citizens to cross what will be the UK/EU border freely.

To me that means a hard border is impossible.

Crossing freely does not mean no border check - it means having right to cross without being denied entry, queuing for 12 hours got nothing to do with this right.

Hard Brexit is the only possible Brexit - given that HMG is ready to sacrifice the golden egg hen (the City) it's hard to imagine they give two tulips about NI

[meridian]

May is apparently preparing a Florence II, so that’s going to come very soon after the Dec Council. But it’s well known that Cabinet hasn’t discussed this yet (), because she knows that resignations are likely. That said, I think we can all agree that the outlines of what May wants - some sort of pick ‘n mix association agreement - is a political fantasy. IMHO, it’s either EEA or WTO, and I assume the latter but, either way a GE is likely, and unavoidable for WTO. Shame, really, as I’d like to see some form of CETA+services, but the politics won’t allow it. Presumably Corbyn would go with EEA, not because he believes in it, but because he has bigger plans?

It doesn't even need to be a firm decision from HMG to pass into December. There are a limited number of options available (SM+CU; SM only; CU only; no deal) - the govt just needs to list them out along with what the proposed solution would be for each of them.

Unfortunately, even listing out the possible solutions would lead to a split in the cabinet, resignations, mutiny, then probably a GE. So yes, I agree with you there.

Corbyn I think has bigger plans. Sit it out until Brexit splits the Tories. He's starting to realise that, despite his social leanings and aversion to the EU, a hard Brexit will hurt the working class more than the toffs. He just needs to figure out a way to explain it to the electorate in a way that doesn't get him branded a traitor by the right-wing rags (which in itself is a dreadful way for them to behave), and he'll step in and put a halt to it. Labour have no answers to what a successful Brexit looks like, either, so there's little chance they'll carry on with it if they can help it. In my opinion...

[jamesbrown]

Here's a novel idea, then - how about HMG provide the EU with their understanding of what the final trade agreement might be, then?

At the moment, you can't really blame the EU for holding a hard line, because the government has been clear so far that Brexit means Brexit. Even for a neutral observer it's clear that these two positions taken by the U.K. are not compatible.

May is apparently preparing a Florence II, so that’s going to come very soon after the Dec Council. But it’s well known that Cabinet hasn’t discussed this yet (), because she knows that resignations are likely. That said, I think we can all agree that the outlines of what May wants - some sort of pick ‘n mix association agreement - is a political fantasy. IMHO, it’s either EEA or WTO, and I assume the latter but, either way a GE is likely, and unavoidable for WTO. Shame, really, as I’d like to see some form of CETA+services, but the politics won’t allow it. Presumably Corbyn would go with EEA, not because he believes in it, but because he has bigger plans?