Reply to: Banking contract - 7 days per week billing ok?

[d000hg]

I think what OP is offering is much more suited to a freelancing type model where you work offsite to your own schedule - i.e. you actually do all the things you try to be able to do for IR35. As a freelancer you might work 7pm-3am and work 7 days a week, all that matters is you deliver - you might provide a log of the number of hours worked but not a timesheet in the same way.

[BlasterBates]

Ah. The point about the fixed budget makes sense. Offering to work on weekends when there is clarity on work to be done is indeed what I intend to do.

If you are new to the project, no there won´t be much clarity, though there is a well defined business objective, plus there is a timeline which you can´t shorten, testing will not be driven by you. Therefore your idea you´ll do a deliverable independently is probably not workable. They´ll usually prefer you to stick to a 5 day week, rather than spend lots of time at the beginning delivering something that then has to be reworked, because the requirements have changed.

No harm in asking though.

[Optimus Prime]

If you work all these weekends are you expecting to end the project earlier than the contract stipulates?

My contract is an year long. So the end is a while away. But well, what software project ends before time? There always seems to be something left to do.

10-12 hour days 7 days a week - and he wants to do that !!!!!!

Is it me or is there something not right about this attitude? Dont get me wrong if the work is there and needs to be done so be it but wanting to do it because you can...

Surely you dont need the money that badly? You wont have time to spend it anyway.

(Also, see scragmeisters sig above - spot on!)

Nothing wrong with this attitude if needs must. I did 7 days a week at every opportunity when I moved to Manchester and renting. Didn't know many people so not much of a social life and wanted to get deposit up to buy a house asap rather than rent. Opportunity came up so did it for 6 months and made most of the deposit required. Got me on the housing ladder through a bit of hard work.

I would agree if this is the OP's general outlook however. My stint was bloody hard on me and the lack of social life and would not do it again unless no other choice but glad I did it.

I just think OP is new to contracting, has dollar signs spinning in his eyes and is being greedy IMO. Reality would be a different thing.

Call it greed or whatever. What I do not intend to do is rip off the client. Being here for a while, making good contacts and learning a lot is important to me. While at it, I'd want to offer to work all the time that can be billed when there is work available to be done. Just because I am happy to do the extra time and others who have their family, social life and old age issues (ok, kidding on that) to consider doesn't make me greedy. I'm guessing most of you did it back in the day when you were putting together money for the home, warchest, car, wife, kids. Once you have that sorted out, you take it a bit easy. Me being a bachelor and in mid twenties, I have time that I'd like to best utilize for profit.

Yes there will be an estimate in man days, but they will be planning you to deliver something in several months, and they have a budget, if you work 7 days a week, you will use the budget up too quickly and you won´t be around to support delivery. That´s why you would need approval from the PM. Unless you´re close to delivery I doubt they´d agree to it. At the bank I work in, they never ask me to come in at the weekend, that´s what permies do.

I would just ride with the tide and offer to work weekends once you´re useful, because at the beginning you´ll just be an expensive burden. Of course you will have something to do on day one but your productivity will be a tenth of the experienced guys in the project.

Ah. The point about the fixed budget makes sense. Offering to work on weekends when there is clarity on work to be done is indeed what I intend to do.

[BlasterBates]

Yea, I was thinking along the same lines. There is something to be done in 4 man days. I'll do it on Thu-Fri-Sat-Sun. And bill 4 days.

Or maybe I manage to finish it on Thu-Fri. I still bill 4 days.

Is the typical contractor work in banks - say Citi, Barclays, Morgan Stanley, Goldman, UBS etc very "do this much work in these many man days" oriented?

Or is it that the team is generally working towards getting to a goal 5 months down the line and there is not too much break down in terms of tasks which are a week or so in size?

Yes there will be an estimate in man days, but they will be planning you to deliver something in several months, and they have a budget, if you work 7 days a week, you will use the budget up too quickly and you won´t be around to support delivery. That´s why you would need approval from the PM. Unless you´re close to delivery I doubt they´d agree to it. At the bank I work in, they never ask me to come in at the weekend, that´s what permies do.

I would just ride with the tide and offer to work weekends once you´re useful, because at the beginning you´ll just be an expensive burden. Of course you will have something to do on day one but your productivity will be a tenth of the experienced guys in the project.

[northernladuk]

10-12 hour days 7 days a week - and he wants to do that !!!!!!

Is it me or is there something not right about this attitude? Dont get me wrong if the work is there and needs to be done so be it but wanting to do it because you can...

Surely you dont need the money that badly? You wont have time to spend it anyway.

(Also, see scragmeisters sig above - spot on!)

Nothing wrong with this attitude if needs must. I did 7 days a week at every opportunity when I moved to Manchester and renting. Didn't know many people so not much of a social life and wanted to get deposit up to buy a house asap rather than rent. Opportunity came up so did it for 6 months and made most of the deposit required. Got me on the housing ladder through a bit of hard work.

I would agree if this is the OP's general outlook however. My stint was bloody hard on me and the lack of social life and would not do it again unless no other choice but glad I did it.

I just think OP is new to contracting, has dollar signs spinning in his eyes and is being greedy IMO. Reality would be a different thing.

[psychocandy]

10-12 hour days 7 days a week - and he wants to do that !!!!!!

Is it me or is there something not right about this attitude? Dont get me wrong if the work is there and needs to be done so be it but wanting to do it because you can...

Surely you dont need the money that badly? You wont have time to spend it anyway.

(Also, see scragmeisters sig above - spot on!)

[Scrag Meister]

You prob need to check the contract thoroughly and also speak to your sponsor at ClientCo.

My contract states no overtime, but if I get approval for necessary weekend work I can get it signed and paid for.

If you work all these weekends are you expecting to end the project earlier than the contract stipulates?

[northernladuk]

Interesting point about being seen as the lowest of the low. I thought contractors are commonplace in banks and everybody must be used to dealing with them. Do they actually get treated different when a team of permies + contractors is discussing/doing the work?

They are common place but it doesn't mean the permies like it. They could be seen as common place at the expense of the permie roles so a few people won't take kindly to it. As I said I was being a little on the extreme end but you can get treated very differently. Maybe not work wise but in social chat. The number of times someone has said to me 'you don't care because you are a contractor' or something to that end.

There is most definately a difference, how much difference changes role per role, how many other contractors there are and so on. In a bank that is contractor heavy then it is probably a nicer environment and it is the individuals you need to watch out for but making yourself a target by asking for more money etc will not help you.

[d000hg]

Your co-workers are going to love you. Especially the permies. "I say we come in Saturday and Sunday and bill for 7 days this week!"

I'm sure lots of people would go for that, especially if any overtime applies.

[Optimus Prime]

Its your first contract, don't over promise. Keep you head down and over deliver. Then two months down the line once they know you, you can try to shift your hours. If you do it immediately they will show you the door if you annoy them and not deliver.

That sounds like good advice. Will follow.

[eek]

Interesting point about being seen as the lowest of the low. I thought contractors are commonplace in banks and everybody must be used to dealing with them. Do they actually get treated different when a team of permies + contractors is discussing/doing the work?

Your last sentence is exactly what I have been intending to try out - no ripping off the client intended at all. First priority is to convince the client of great value being delivered this being my first foray into banking as well as contracting.

Its your first contract, don't over promise. Keep you head down and over deliver. Then two months down the line once they know you, you can try to shift your hours. If you do it immediately they will show you the door if you annoy them and not deliver.

[Optimus Prime]

Because there can be a different perception of a contractor to a permie and it is rarely a good one. We are often seen as over paid, trouble causers and are the lowest of the low. Some clients are marginal, some will be outright hostile to you. This is before you have sat down and done a days work. To then go in and start showing your greed at the clients expense from the off you are going to make life very difficult for you and your fellow contractors. I am taking an extreme stance here to make a point. Your client is your client, not a money machine for you to abuse as you see fit and some decorum and common sense is required.

But enough of that.... my take on your questions...

If the client is willing to pay for 7 days, you are happy to do it and it is in the clients best interest they yes it is possible. The key words in the sentence however are 'IF the client is willing' and 'the clients best interest'. To go in and try and wangle 7 days for yourself just to line your pocket will alienate you to the client. They want good solid people that will work to fit their plans. You start playing the lose cannon you are more likely to get walked than asked to work 7 days.

If you do a few hours at the weekend.. You book a few hours. You do not screw your client over, you are not a permie as Mal pointed out. Doing a few hours and booking a day is taking the piss out of him and in our line of work you do not do that.

I have worked weekends occasionally in my last 4 clients and ALL are booked at normal time. If booking 1.5 and 2 times does I happen I have been very unfortuante not to see but you have to apply some common sense. If you are paid £400 a day do you really think he is going to pay you £800 for working a Sunday? When permies are on peanuts they can do double time as it isn't a big hit to the budget. £800 is.

If this is indeed your first contract then stop being greedy, be a professional, get the experience under your belt, a happy client that will offer you extensions and come looking for more work in the future. These will be much more valuable to you than taking the piss out of your client for a couple of months.

Feel free to very carefully suggest it if the work is there and there is a benefit, don't look like an idiot and push it hard when really you cannot do the work at a weekend or is no benefit.

Interesting point about being seen as the lowest of the low. I thought contractors are commonplace in banks and everybody must be used to dealing with them. Do they actually get treated different when a team of permies + contractors is discussing/doing the work?

Your last sentence is exactly what I have been intending to try out - no ripping off the client intended at all. First priority is to convince the client of great value being delivered this being my first foray into banking as well as contracting.

[northernladuk]

Well, as far as there is actual work being done - why not? My point is that if I am willing to work longer hours and/or on weekends, I would want to be compensated for it. It is not a problem for me. I do want to use my time better. But not for no return!

Please point out to me the funny bit. Or why my experience in IT would be called into question by what I said.

Because there can be a different perception of a contractor to a permie and it is rarely a good one. We are often seen as over paid, trouble causers and are the lowest of the low. Most clients will be fine, the odd one will be outright hostile to you. This is before you have sat down and done a days work. To then go in and start showing your greed at the clients expense from the off you are going to make life very difficult for you and your fellow contractors. I am taking an extreme stance here to make a point. Your client is your client, not a money machine for you to abuse as you see fit and some decorum and common sense is required.

But enough of that.... my take on your questions...

If the client is willing to pay for 7 days, you are happy to do it and it is in the clients best interest they yes it is possible. The key words in the sentence however are 'IF the client is willing' and 'the clients best interest'. To go in and try and wangle 7 days for yourself just to line your pocket will alienate you to the client. They want good solid people that will work to fit their plans. You start playing the lose cannon you are more likely to get walked than asked to work 7 days.

If you do a few hours at the weekend.. You book a few hours. You do not screw your client over, you are not a permie as Mal pointed out. Doing a few hours and booking a day is taking the piss out of him and in our line of work you do not do that.

I have worked weekends occasionally in my last 4 clients and ALL are booked at normal time. If booking 1.5 and 2 times does I happen I have been very unfortuante not to see but you have to apply some common sense. If you are paid £400 a day do you really think he is going to pay you £800 for working a Sunday? When permies are on peanuts they can do double time as it isn't a big hit to the budget. £800 is.

If this is indeed your first contract then stop being greedy, be a professional, get the experience under your belt, a happy client that will offer you extensions and come looking for more work in the future. These will be much more valuable to you than taking the piss out of your client for a couple of months.

Feel free to very carefully suggest it if the work is there and there is a benefit, don't look like an idiot and push it hard when really you cannot do the work at a weekend or is no benefit.

[Optimus Prime]

Your co-workers are going to love you. Especially the permies. "I say we come in Saturday and Sunday and bill for 7 days this week!"

Well, as far as there is actual work being done - why not? My point is that if I am willing to work longer hours and/or on weekends, I would want to be compensated for it. It is not a problem for me. I do want to use my time better. But not for no return!

Please point out to me the funny bit. Or why my experience in IT would be called into question by what I said.

[oversteer]

Just out of interest, have you ever done a contract or worked in IT before???

Your co-workers are going to love you. Especially the permies. "I say we come in Saturday and Sunday and bill for 7 days this week!"