Reply to: Rates: Day v hour rates

[Ignis Fatuus]

The most important general point to take away from this is the importance of walking away when that is what is called for. If we all allow that kind of agent and/or client to take the piss, then the piss will be taken.

[Fred Bloggs]

I have always had hourly rates until this gig. Currently I'm on a day rate and the client is exceptionally accomodating. I turn up at ~11.00 on a Monday and I leave at ~11.00 on Fridays to head up the M40. I bill 5x day rate and I leave the office every evening at ~16.00. Can't say fairer than that as current day rate (day rate x5 divided by 40) is 2x my last hourly rate.

[Boo]

A request for hints here. Offered a new role in Cambridge, rate is a moderate day rate but they're very clear that I may be expected to work very long hours. They're refusing to put hours in the contract, simply stating that the rate is for "work as required" on a set day.

It's up to you, but I know what I do : if an agent ever quotes me a daily rate at any stage in the process I say that it will be an hourly rate, then if they insist I walk away. Simple as...

So... any advice on how to take it forward?

Not really, it's up to you in the end. Sounds like the contract from hell to me though, and if you want a chance to impress the agent that you mean what you say then now would be an ideal opportunity...

Boo

[richy]

For the roll in Cambridge, was it the OpenGL|ES one? Developing a gfx/media expansion card.

420 per day would have been good for that!

Which agency, client was it BTW?
cheers. richy

[SueEllen]

To be honest I've seen some roles bouncing around for a long time even in this bad market.

While I know people are desperate for contracts, clients are also desperate to get their monies worth so if they can't get the calibre of candidate they want due to agencies screwing around or the client paying low rates then they are tending to leave roles unfilled.

I'm currently in a role where the previous agency that had the contract screwed around with rates and couldn't get anyone to fill it.

[craig1]

Thanks for all the supportive comments

The problem is that too many people have too small a war chest and a good number of agencies/companies are getting used to being able to impose hard terms on people who can't say "no" because of mounting bills. When they meet someone who just wants a fair deal then it doesn't work out and they blame the contractor.

When the market comes back round again to nearly full utilisation in the contract market then there are a few agencies/companies that are going to find filling contract roles very difficult. First against the wall will be those who screw contractors with this "employed consultant" business, then those like the parties involved in this thread, then the downright miserable penny-pinchers who think £200 a day is a "good" rate for a project manager with 15+ years of experience these days.

I also hope that when the market comes around again, more people will concentrate on building a 12+ month war chest rather than the few pounds stuffed away that most contractors have that I know. Too many people had large credit card debts, unsustainable mortgages and flashy cars in the "good" times but neglected to pad their savings accounts.

[d000hg]

Craig I think you played it well, shame it didn't go your way but having a decent warchest lets you avoid taking any old role.

I wouldn't automatically assume it's bad management that they expect long hours from the off, it may be there is a backlog of work from someone else screwing up in the same role and bailing. But it's sensible to be cautious/suspicious.

[TykeMerc]

Sensible call Craig, if you can't get terms you like then you've not reached agreement and there isn't a contract.

I've stuck to my guns on a few occasions, sometimes its paid off, othertimes there's no contract.

[Pondlife]

Well done for sticking to your guns. Obviously a healthy warchest helps at time like these and so congrats for playing the 'contracting game' with a sensible outlook.

I always seem to have a day rate offered but with a stipulation that it's for a 'professional working day' and as other posters have said it's about building a relationship with your client. I'm happy to go to a meeting at 6pm when working away or pull the occaisonal late night when required but I also don't expect an earful from my client if I leave to go to the dentist for an hour on a Friday.

If they said from the off that the expectation is 10-12 hours per day as the norm, then that IMHO is not a prof working day.

You did the right thing.

Best of luck with the new hunt.

[VectraMan]

I'd rather work on a day rate, although most of my contracts have been per hour. I'd rather do the work as if it was a full time job, without worrying about doing exact hours or feeling I have to pad out the day to make it up to the 8 hours (which is usually what seems to happen).

There's always the argument about long hours, but I don't want to be doing regular 12 hour days even if I'm being paid extra for it. But I don't mind a one off if it's for an important reason.

This really all comes down to whether you have a good working relationship with the client, and it seems likely in this situation that was never going to happen.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Thanks for that!

Progress since my first post. Call from agent that they've agreed to change to hourly rates but at no more than day rate/10. I told them it was unacceptable and that I'd prefer day/7.5. Agent unwilling to go back to the client with that.

As it's a potentially interesting role with new challenges, I relented and said I'd be prepared to do a one-off deal of an hourly rate of day/8.75 with a cap of 50 hours per week then day/5 for everything over. Agent still unwilling so I told him that if the client won't go to that then the excess can either come off the agent's cut or put a hard working hour cap of 50 hours and day/8.5.

Agent's exact words were: "why are you being so difficult over this"

I think I'll be having more time for Christmas shopping then

Situation pretty clear. You are (were) being set up for 10-12+ hour days at a low (hourly) rate.

"why are you being so difficult over this" = "why won't you let me shaft you". When an agent starts lecturing you on how to do your contracting, walk away, but not slowly.

[craig1]

This is precisely the reason I always insist (but don't always get - hey ho) an hourly rate rather than a day rate.

Sure, I lose out slightly if I finish early on one particular day, but it cuts cr*p like this right down. None of this "standard" daily rate, but we expect you to work 1.5 x "standard" daily hours for it.

I, too, will happily work a long working day but like yourself, I'll insist on being paid for it and an hourly rate guarantees that.

I don't mind daily rates, makes invoicing easier for me, but I do insist on a defined "day". I'll happily work over that time on a condition that it's on an informal flexi-time basis, they don't complain about me taking the occasional half-day off for dentist appointments, accountant meetings or so on and I don't complain about putting in an extra long shift to compensate. You have to have a client manager who you can trust though for an arrangement like that. A few years ago I did one very urgent rollout where I did 5 16 hour days in a week, I took off one Monday a week for the five weeks after that but still billed for it, client happily counter-signed every invoice without complaint.

Contracting can be fun if you have a good working relationship with the client. Being pedantic is rarely enjoyable for either side although some client managers seem to get chubbies from getting every last ounce of sweat out of their contractors.

[craig1]

Day rate is pretty good in current climate, but only for reasonable hours (though I guess it does depend on the area). Not really worth it for anything more than 8 hours a day and with a tough commute it would be devastating.

If it were £420 a day for a generic infrastructure PM role then I'd agree it is decent but it's for a very niche role requiring specific experience on a high-risk "bet the company" project. If I were the recruitment agent, based on my previous experience, I'd be pushing back at the client for £500-£600 per day minimum for a contractor rate. I only considered it in the first place because I prefer taking challenging roles to yet another mind-numbing infrastructure upgrade.

It's a 90 minute each way commute then you've got the particular niceties of commuting to Cambridge to consider. Hard to explain unless you have experience of commuting to Cambridge.

[billybiro]

Offer withdrawn Client told agent to withdraw my offer because I "wasn't flexible enough". I think they might struggle to get an experienced contractor to stay, especially for what is a very tough project that needs a very firm pair of hands in charge.

Rate isn't the big issue for me, I'll happily come right down the rates for a good local role for a company that treats contractors with respect but I'll expect very good money to work for iffy companies, especially if there's a decent commute/stay away involved. £420 a day is bottom-end for a contract like this.

I'm reviewing the confidentiality agreement now, if I can find a loophole then I'll name and shame agency and client. Unlikely though as it's a very sensitive project and they want complete confidentiality.

Thanks for all the advice, made my decision easier and made me think I'm less of a primadonna for holding out.

This is precisely the reason I always insist (but don't always get - hey ho) an hourly rate rather than a day rate.

Sure, I lose out slightly if I finish early on one particular day, but it cuts cr*p like this right down. None of this "standard" daily rate, but we expect you to work 1.5 x "standard" daily hours for it.

I, too, will happily work a long working day but like yourself, I'll insist on being paid for it and an hourly rate guarantees that.

[css_jay99]

Offer withdrawn Client told agent to withdraw my offer because I "wasn't flexible enough". I think they might struggle to get an experienced contractor to stay, especially for what is a very tough project that needs a very firm pair of hands in charge.

.

It sound to me like the Agent was trying to line his own pocket and found another mug to dance to his tunes.

Hold your head up and keep looking. Agents can be scum at times


css_jay99