Reply to: Holding crypto in Ltd Company?

[woody1]

Starting to wish I had set up an account that would let the company hold physical gold and silver now. Feels like BTC momentum is slipping and a take profit might be a smart move.

Not within a ltd co but I recently took profit in btc and moved the proceeds into a silver etf.

Gold is the driving force but silver tends to outperform in the later stages of a precious metals bull market. No idea how long this bull market will last, or how high it will ultimately go, but can see the gsr dropping well below 50 before it comes to an end. May even be like the late 1970s.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1441/gold-to-silver-ratio

[willendure]

I hold a small BTC/ETH allocation in my UK Ltd. Our accountant treated it as an intangible under FRS 102 at cost, tested for impairment at year end, no mark to market gains booked. Disposals hit P&L and get corporation tax, not CGT. No VAT on buying/selling exchange tokens. Keep records of dates, GBP values and fees. We documented it as treasury and kept it a small % to avoid close investment company issues. Unrelated but useful: I tried an orb once to get an anonymous proof of human for a beta app. Didn’t change tax stuff, but it helped at signup.

Thanks - that is interesting. Intangible would seem to fit the definition well. Same as you, I have a small allocation just in case close investment company is an issue, which I doubt anyway so long as I have a contracting income.

Starting to wish I had set up an account that would let the company hold physical gold and silver now. Feels like BTC momentum is slipping and a take profit might be a smart move.

[Stevep42]

I hold a small BTC/ETH allocation in my UK Ltd. Our accountant treated it as an intangible under FRS 102 at cost, tested for impairment at year end, no mark to market gains booked. Disposals hit P&L and get corporation tax, not CGT. No VAT on buying/selling exchange tokens. Keep records of dates, GBP values and fees. We documented it as treasury and kept it a small % to avoid close investment company issues. Unrelated but useful: I tried an orb once to get an anonymous proof of human for a beta app. Didn’t change tax stuff, but it helped at signup.

[Lance]

Thanks for that FCA link. I looked into it and "specific cryptoasset activities" means either running an exchange, or holding custodial wallets. So an ltd owning some bitcoin as an investment/inflation hedge would not come under that.

So far, I have always taken my crypto off exchange and into my own wallet. By far the scariest thing about crypto is the fear of somehow losing that wallet, or having it hacked.

I am of the opinion that a personal wallet is safer than an Exchange. They do get hacked.
Keep your private key very secure is the trick. You can use a paper wallet, but they are at risk of fire damage.

In the past I have kept the wallet itself backed up to cloud services (OneDrive) protected by MFA. And keep the private key in a different location and encrypt with AES-256. The biggest risk to those is loss of files, hence cloud storage. Backups also are handy.

[willendure]

FCA Registered Cryptoasset firms

If you want to keep your Crypto on the exchange, you should be very sure about that exchange is managed.

Thanks for that FCA link. I looked into it and "specific cryptoasset activities" means either running an exchange, or holding custodial wallets. So an ltd owning some bitcoin as an investment/inflation hedge would not come under that.

So far, I have always taken my crypto off exchange and into my own wallet. By far the scariest thing about crypto is the fear of somehow losing that wallet, or having it hacked.

[CheeseSlice]

FCA Registered Cryptoasset firms

From 10 January 2020, firms carrying out specific cryptoasset activities in the UK will need to comply with the amended Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (MLRs) and register with the FCA. This list below shows the registered cryptoasset firms and their details which the FCA is responsible for registering, supervising and enforcing, for anti-money laundering and counter terrorist financing purposes.

I think the fear of a ponzi scheme is understandable when the FTX/SBF scandal was so recent.
If you want to keep your Crypto on the exchange, you should be very sure about that exchange is managed.
In the USA due to new SEC approvals, you can now hold Bitcoin in a Spot Bitcoin ETF and even hold it a pension. Not availble in the UK yet though as I believe our requriements are more stringent here.
Did you also know that blockchains like for Bitoin are transparent (though anonymous), so you can view and watch transactions in realtime. Law enforcement and even anybody can literally "follow the money" as it moves between wallets.

I don't hold crypto in my business/treasury but I do hold it personally. BTC and ETH to be specific. Its working out quite nicely at the moment.

[Lance]

You can open a business account on Bitstamp. I just did.

They want your tax id now. So all purchases initially tie your on exchange wallet together with your company id. Bitcoin is a public ledger. If the money ends up in my private exchange wallet and then back into £ in my pocket, it will be pretty easy to trace. I guess it can probably be done by washing through some other cryptos, stable coins, etc.

Of course, I have no intention of defrauding HMRC. It will all be above board and remain within ownership of the ltd, and if there is a profit, will be paying corp tax on it.

Terrorists sometimes buy weapons with dollars. Does that mean I should not use the dollar?

good luck with it. I hope it works out.

<Placemarker> BTC price today, on Bitstamp is £55,328

[willendure]

no but OP is asking about holding the money launderers/terrorists/people smugglers/drug dealers/delete as appropriate, currency of choice in his LTD for which he has fiduciary obligations. So it's a terrible idea for multiple reasons.

Another couple of reasons...
How do you prove the loss to HMRC is not just from trousering a few k that has been sent via the blockchain?
Finding a crypto exchange that will deal with a business bank that isn't just another Ponzi scheme.

You can open a business account on Bitstamp. I just did.

They want your tax id now. So all purchases initially tie your on exchange wallet together with your company id. Bitcoin is a public ledger. If the money ends up in my private exchange wallet and then back into £ in my pocket, it will be pretty easy to trace. I guess it can probably be done by washing through some other cryptos, stable coins, etc.

Of course, I have no intention of defrauding HMRC. It will all be above board and remain within ownership of the ltd, and if there is a profit, will be paying corp tax on it.

Terrorists sometimes buy weapons with dollars. Does that mean I should not use the dollar?

[Lance]

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension the OP is asking for opinions on crypto as an investment, generally

no but OP is asking about holding the money launderers/terrorists/people smugglers/drug dealers/delete as appropriate, currency of choice in his LTD for which he has fiduciary obligations. So it's a terrible idea for multiple reasons.

Another couple of reasons...
How do you prove the loss to HMRC is not just from trousering a few k that has been sent via the blockchain?
Finding a crypto exchange that will deal with a business bank that isn't just another Ponzi scheme.

[willendure]

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension the OP is asking for opinions on crypto as an investment, generally

Yes. I guess its pointless to ask here, because thats the way the thread is innevitably going to go. I think I'll just get on with buying some and then face the music when my accountant has a heart attack!

But to be clear, I'm not going to be putting much into it. Right now I think a good portfolio distribution is towards safety. 1/3 cash, 1/3 bonds, 1/3 "gold". In the "gold" section, I will divide between gold and bitcoin. I also have a separate rainy day cash pool not included in this (1 full years living costs). Might lose a few £k if it goes badly but no need to wet your knickers over my terrible terrible plan.

[Lance]

I don't think it falls under VAT. Same as other investments, like gold or stocks.

gold attracts VAT... Except for some circumstances. So stick to bars and coins, as they are the least likely. Note that investment gold was only excluded from VAT to align with EU VAT rules. This may change.

Bitcoin doesn't attract VAT (HMRC have excluded it after a test case in Denmark I think), but it gets complex after that. NFTs will almost certainly attract it. As for other sh$tcoins, do want to be the one that gets investigated and made a test case of?

It's still a dumb idea IMO. If you really want to gamble like that, take the dividend and "invest" it personally.

[d000hg]

it won't be taxed when you lose money.
And if you buy it as an 'asset' won't you have to charge VAT to sell it on later?
Either way it's a terrible idea. Just get a business savings account as interest > inflation right now.

HTH

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension the OP is asking for opinions on crypto as an investment, generally

[willendure]

Just get a business savings account as interest > inflation right now.

Sure. But I would prefer to diversify things a little. Inflation will be back with a vengeance.

[willendure]

I don't think it falls under VAT. Same as other investments, like gold or stocks.

[Lance]

There is no such thing as CGT (captial gain tax) for companies is there? It would just be taxed at the corp tax rate.

it won't be taxed when you lose money.
And if you buy it as an 'asset' won't you have to charge VAT to sell it on later?
Either way it's a terrible idea. Just get a business savings account as interest > inflation right now.

HTH