Reply to: IR35 implications of my end client (through umbrella) becoming my agency client.

[cojak]

I would advice that this is the wrong forum for the poster, they need to find a forum that serves recruitment agents. That forum would give them the best advice regarding employment lawyers to help with government regulations and how to join REC.

If they are creating a proper agency they will be far too busy setting up the company and looking for new clients to work as a contractor in the existing contract. I would advise giving that contract to a new contractor and viewing it as your first win.

Thread closed.

[Fred Bloggs]

Oh yes. OP puts up vague posts and avoids direct questions.
Come to expect it from people hoping we will support/justify/endorse the behaviour that he/she/it is doing.

Exactly. Topic needs no discussion really.

[WTFH]

Two pages of pointless drivel. I hope the mods are reading.

Oh yes. OP puts up vague posts and avoids direct questions.
Come to expect it from people hoping we will support/justify/endorse the behaviour that he/she/it is doing.

[Fred Bloggs]

Two pages of pointless drivel. I hope the mods are reading.

[jamesbrown]

Before IR35 kicked in for the private sector, the client didn't bother determining statuses and blanket - umbrella-ed all contractors. I, being proactive, asked said client to sign a confirmation of arrangements for the time I contracted with them (i.e. before getting into the umbrella contract). The client's answers to that confirmation point to "outside IR35" working practices.

That doesn't answer the question. Why would they offer you an SDS now? Unless they do, this whole conversation is moot.

[malvolio]

OK last attempt to have a logical conversation, without assumptions and especially without insults (please).


malvolio

Moving forward, I wouldn't work for the client, my limited company would provide resources (i.e. other people) to the client for projects, most if not all, different to what I've personally worked on so far (via umbrella or my limited company before that).

You still miss the point here. Who the intermediary is doesn't count, whether it's YourCo, an umbrella or some other agency (for which read consultancy, just to be clear), if you do work for them the status quo ante persists.

Also, if you are supplying warm bodies to run their projects rather than complete turnkey solutions via your agency, then all their engagements will be inside IR35 regardless.

Perhaps you need to re-read Chapter 10 and recent case law.

[Ariosa]

OK last attempt to have a logical conversation, without assumptions and especially without insults (please).

jamesbrown

How did you come to operate this contract through an umbrella? It sounds as though the client mandated it. If it fell under Chapter 10 and the end client was unwilling to issue an SDS before, why would they now?

Before IR35 kicked in for the private sector, the client didn't bother determining statuses and blanket - umbrella-ed all contractors. I, being proactive, asked said client to sign a confirmation of arrangements for the time I contracted with them (i.e. before getting into the umbrella contract). The client's answers to that confirmation point to "outside IR35" working practices.


malvolio

The substantive point is that if you continue to work for the client, any intermediary including your new agency will have no impact on your IR35 status. The precise contractual chain will be ignored.

Moving forward, I wouldn't work for the client, my limited company would provide resources (i.e. other people) to the client for projects, most if not all, different to what I've personally worked on so far (via umbrella or my limited company before that).

[Fred Bloggs]

Each post on its own merits. You’re being consistently vague, choosing not to address the substance of any comments you’ve received. There’s a reason for that. If you want to address the substance, you’ll get better advice.

As usual, this poster isn't impressed when he/she doesn't get the preferred answer. As well as in fact the question is posted in a forum for contractors rather than agency operators, the OP appears very unimpressed that people freely offer an honest opinion entirely free.

To be honest, I don't think this poster really deserves any help from the members here.

[jamesbrown]

OK it seems that you've seen countless posts from people that try to "fudge" things in here, so you assume that everyone is trying to do the same thing. I find this offending and maintaining this conversation is not going anywhere. Thanks for your responses anyway.

Each post on its own merits. You’re being consistently vague, choosing not to address the substance of any comments you’ve received. There’s a reason for that. If you want to address the substance, you’ll get better advice.

[malvolio]

malvolio I thought I've already responded to what you replied with my previous comment; You mentioned "shifting intermediaries" but the contract I had with this client before the umbrella situation is indeed protected by a confirmation of arrangements where the client basically confirms that the arrangements of working practices have an outside IR35 flavour (e.g. rights for substitution, working hours, technical implementation freedom etc.). I would think this will be helpful for our post-umbrella engagements.

Probably got lost when the thread moved. No matter

The substantive point is that if you continue to work for the client, any intermediary including your new agency will have no impact on your IR35 status. The precise contractual chain will be ignored.

You asked originally what the impact would be. I have tried to answer that. If at any point you were treated as being inside that will still be the case. But, of course, if the umbrella was only used to avoid the question arising rather than establish a clear position wrt IR35, then you need to think a little carefully about how HMRC would view the case...

[Ariosa]

You're being extremely vague, presumably because you're trying to fudge something.

OK it seems that you've seen countless posts from people that try to "fudge" things in here, so you assume that everyone is trying to do the same thing. I find this offending and maintaining this conversation is not going anywhere. Thanks for your responses anyway.

[jamesbrown]

I would think this will be helpful for our post-umbrella engagements.

You're being extremely vague, presumably because you're trying to fudge something. How did you come to operate this contract through an umbrella? It sounds as though the client mandated it. If it fell under Chapter 10 and the end client was unwilling to issue an SDS before, why would they now?

In any case, assuming they are willing to do this, you'd better be quite confident about the position, because the client is not liable in the first instance (assuming the SDS was issued timely and with reasonable care), rather the Fee Payer, which is your agency. My guess is that HMRC would take a very close interest, if only due to the very odd circumstances (i.e., that you are personally involved with the Fee Payer).

[Ariosa]

malvolio I thought I've already responded to what you replied with my previous comment; You mentioned "shifting intermediaries" but the contract I had with this client before the umbrella situation is indeed protected by a confirmation of arrangements where the client basically confirms that the arrangements of working practices have an outside IR35 flavour (e.g. rights for substitution, working hours, technical implementation freedom etc.). I would think this will be helpful for our post-umbrella engagements.

[malvolio]

I sincerely don't understand why most of you assume things I never stated. The reason for the agency is OTHER clients that I have. I want to be able to support my clients through a managed - service model where other people (contractors to begin with and hopefully employees in the near future) will be working on projects instead of just myself (this is already happening for some of the projects). This client becoming another client of my agency is a symptom of this transition, not the reason for it.

I would truly appreciate constructive comments instead of end-of-the-world scenarios. This is a forum where people (also) help each other I would think?

Well I would appreciate a response to the second post in this thread where I tried to lay out the answer to the question set. If you're going to ask for advice (or opinion, at least) have the courtesy to respond when it's given.

It's not like we're working to an SLA, is it?

[Ariosa]

Is this the same client that you mentioned in a previous thread?
Being offered renewal under umbrella, unsure about where to go from here - Contractor UK Bulletin Board
If they gave you an SDS saying that the role was inside IR35, what has changed now? Is the client going to give you a new SDS?

I actually have a confirmation of arrangements from the client that points to outside of IR35 arrangements during the pre-umbrella contract with this client (i.e. when the contract was between my LTD and the client).