Reply to: Paystream for Ltd / PSC services

[Maslins]

Is this price rise only for new clients? Will existing clients remain on the old rate?

At least for the time being, existing clients will remain on the "old" rate. If you are an existing client, you should have got an email re this last Friday.

[Skeet]

As an aside, from 2023 our normal monthly fee for new clients will be increasing to £119+VAT/month. First price rise in almost a decade, but current economic climate makes it unavoidable.

Is this price rise only for new clients? Will existing clients remain on the old rate?

[Maslins]

What about a company that use the Freeagent software that is mentioned here but still provide support/advice/reviews and assistance with things like VAT returns and Personal tax returns... e.g. someone like https://www.maslins.co.uk/ who appear to offer this service for £99 p/m and have excellent reviews.

Would you say this sort of service is less likely to be open to a MSCP investigation because they don't also have an Umbrella arm, or they are just as likely as someone like Paystream to be investigated in the future?

The MSC stuff admittedly has given us a bit of a scare. A little like IR35, it's so grey and woolly. Where's the line between acting like a normal accountant, and influencing a client's financial decisions. I'd argue those are the same thing!

Someone with more inside information than me did suggest it's use of bespoke portals that's a key thing in the current cases. No accountant controls FreeAgent. Yes we can tweak a couple of settings deciding what access you have, but you're able to overrule that if you want, and we can't stop you. Plus you're always free to leave us and take all your bookkeeping data and FreeAgent account with you. Compare that to a bespoke portal where the accountant has total control over what you can do and how, and you can't separate the accounting support from the bookkeeping tool.

So in practice, we'll be keeping an eye on how the current cases pan out, but are of the view we/our clients are safe. We're ensuring we stick to what we know (accounting support for Ltd Cos), and avoiding drifting towards being a "one stop shop" for contractors (selling umbrella services, insurance, tax investigations cover etc), pointing people to third parties if they want those.

As an aside, from 2023 our normal monthly fee for new clients will be increasing to £119+VAT/month. First price rise in almost a decade, but current economic climate makes it unavoidable.

[northernladuk]

FWIW, I'm not recommending a possible accountant the poster hasn't already identified for themselves.

If Mr Maslin doesn't want to answer what appear to be perfectly reasonable, highly topical questions then I'm more than sure he's perfectly capable of making that clear.

Further I think it would be a dereliction of duty if a director of a company didn't seek to carry out some due diligence before appointing any professional services company to act for them. Whether it was an accountant or something else.

Personally, if I asked such a question of an accountant and they responded how you describe, I'd be appalled.

Yeah slight difference is you know what you know. What if it was some that really didn't care or make an effort. I guess money is money and helping one person is a long way from being an MSC provider so an accountant would never do that and I'm just over thinking it

[Fred Bloggs]

I also agree but I'm wondering what happens if accountants that want to only give accountancy advice get some chump on that doesn't have a clue. Not sure how Chris would feel if we recommend people that come to him and say 'Right, what do I do next' all the time.

If they onboard someone that starts asking questions about contracts, what business decisions to make and asking the accountant if they can do this and that it must put them in a difficult situation to not answer and appear unhelpful (but really that's the best way in the long run) or tell the contractor the answer and be at risk of running their business.

Personally I'd prefer an accountant that tells me to sod off that's not their area and they are keeping me (and them) safe from MSC but not everyone will like that approach

FWIW, I'm not recommending a possible accountant the poster hasn't already identified for themselves.

If Mr Maslin doesn't want to answer what appear to be perfectly reasonable, highly topical questions then I'm more than sure he's perfectly capable of making that clear.

Further I think it would be a dereliction of duty if a director of a company didn't seek to carry out some due diligence before appointing any professional services company to act for them. Whether it was an accountant or something else.

Personally, if I asked such a question of an accountant and they responded how you describe, I'd be appalled.

[northernladuk]

I don't need an accountant any more. But if I did, Maslins would probably be the first one I called. I think before you engage an accountant you should discuss concerns over further MSCP investigations with them and see for yourself how clued up they appear. Then you can judge for yourself whether you want a monthly subscription or an ad hoc as required paid for service. But FreeAgent in my opinion is an essential prerequisite either way.

I also agree but I'm wondering what happens if accountants that want to only give accountancy advice get some chump on that doesn't have a clue. Not sure how Chris would feel if we recommend people that come to him and say 'Right, what do I do next' all the time.

If they onboard someone that starts asking questions about contracts, what business decisions to make and asking the accountant if they can do this and that it must put them in a difficult situation to not answer and appear unhelpful (but really that's the best way in the long run) or tell the contractor the answer and be at risk of running their business.

Personally I'd prefer an accountant that tells me to sod off that's not their area and they are keeping me (and them) safe from MSC but not everyone will like that approach

[Fred Bloggs]

What about a company that use the Freeagent software that is mentioned here but still provide support/advice/reviews and assistance with things like VAT returns and Personal tax returns... e.g. someone like https://www.maslins.co.uk/ who appear to offer this service for £99 p/m and have excellent reviews.

Would you say this sort of service is less likely to be open to a MSCP investigation because they don't also have an Umbrella arm, or they are just as likely as someone like Paystream to be investigated in the future?

I don't need an accountant any more. But if I did, Maslins would probably be the first one I called. I think before you engage an accountant you should discuss concerns over further MSCP investigations with them and see for yourself how clued up they appear. Then you can judge for yourself whether you want a monthly subscription or an ad hoc as required paid for service. But FreeAgent in my opinion is an essential prerequisite either way.

[jamesbrown]

What about a company that use the Freeagent software that is mentioned here but still provide support/advice/reviews and assistance with things like VAT returns and Personal tax returns... e.g. someone like https://www.maslins.co.uk/ who appear to offer this service for £99 p/m and have excellent reviews.

Would you say this sort of service is less likely to be open to a MSCP investigation because they don't also have an Umbrella arm, or they are just as likely as someone like Paystream to be investigated in the future?

It's hard to provide guidance on investigations, but CK and Boox seem to have been targeted fairly well, not randomly. In terms of risk, though, the risk will be much smaller with a practice like Maslins than some others. Still, a lower risk is a local/general practice that completes your year end returns only and the lowest possible risk is doing the accounts yourself (in terms of the MSC legislation, anyway, but perhaps not in terms of screw ups unless you know what you're doing!). It isn't FreeAgent or Xero per se that is the distinguishing factor, it's more the correlation between using these tools and the level of hand-holding you're likely to get (smaller). Of course, it's perfectly possible that you could build a highly controlling/hand-holding service on top of any particular book-keeping software.

You should really do the routine (payroll and VAT) returns yourself, though, and keep all of the paperwork and correspondence that clarifies that you are choosing how to set your salary and pay dividends to any shareholders. You should reserve help for the year-end returns at most.

[JRC1]

What about a company that use the Freeagent software that is mentioned here but still provide support/advice/reviews and assistance with things like VAT returns and Personal tax returns... e.g. someone like https://www.maslins.co.uk/ who appear to offer this service for £99 p/m and have excellent reviews.

Would you say this sort of service is less likely to be open to a MSCP investigation because they don't also have an Umbrella arm, or they are just as likely as someone like Paystream to be investigated in the future?

[gables]

In which case he should remain working via an umbrella because HMRC is going after anyone using an contractor accountancy firm....

And for those who don't want to do everything themselves I would be hunting for a small local firm that is outside of HMRC's radar and will pass HMRC's "is this an actual accountancy firm sniff test?" - because any accountancy firm that focusses on PSC contractors is definitely on HMRC list to annoy and seek more money from.

Exactly this for me and keep it simple, record what you need to pass onto them for year end and use them for advice as and when.

[Fred Bloggs]

In which case he should remain working via an umbrella because HMRC is going after anyone using an contractor accountancy firm....

And for those who don't want to do everything themselves I would be hunting for a small local firm that is outside of HMRC's radar and will pass HMRC's "is this an actual accountancy firm sniff test?" - because any accountancy firm that focusses on PSC contractors is definitely on HMRC list to annoy and seek more money from.

Fully agree.

[eek]

Having done DIY book keeping and reporting successfully myself, I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. Especially someone like the OP. I get the impression from the comments made that OP isn't interested enough to understand what responsibilities are involved with running an incorporated business. And definitely not without help from an accountant.

In which case he should remain working via an umbrella because HMRC is going after anyone using an contractor accountancy firm....

And for those who don't want to do everything themselves I would be hunting for a small local firm that is outside of HMRC's radar and will pass HMRC's "is this an actual accountancy firm sniff test?" - because any accountancy firm that focusses on PSC contractors is definitely on HMRC list to annoy and seek more money from.

[Fred Bloggs]

Having done DIY book keeping and reporting successfully myself, I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. Especially someone like the OP. I get the impression from the comments made that OP isn't interested enough to understand what responsibilities are involved with running an incorporated business. And definitely not without help from an accountant.

[northernladuk]

You really don't - a bit of reading round here will tell you everything you need to pick an appropriate salary and how to handle dividends.

Heck FreeAgent will even do your end of year accounts submission to HMRC for you.

They were just two examples and yes if you were an experienced contractor it might help but we've only a small handfull of people on here doing their own accounting via Freeagent and even they keep having to come on to ask questions. Someone coming from Umbrella in to outside isn't going to know enough to do their own stuff just using Freeagent.

No way should someone in that situation be just using FA to do their accounting. Well, IMO after looking being here long enough to see seasoned contractors even with an accountant ballsing up their accounting.

[eek]

Correct. Freeagent is just a book keeping tool. You still need an accountant behind to advise on tax changes, efficient levels and any other queries you have.

Paysteam will be expensive as they are big company with a lot of overheads. They will also be taking advantage of their customers that switch from brolly to accountant and charge them a premium because they will be too lazy to leave and find another company that doesn't have the pool of brolly contractors already. The other companies will have to be more competitive on price to win new business.

You really don't - a bit of reading round here will tell you everything you need to pick an appropriate salary and how to handle dividends.

Heck FreeAgent will even do your end of year accounts submission to HMRC for you.