Reply to: Contracting vs Perm

[NotAllThere]

Those old farts were predicting gloom in 2000...

I remember 2000. Rates collapsed to about 60% of late 90s levels and reasonably interesting contracts were far and few between.

if I have a mortgage when I'm 50 I will have failed in life.

Silly. There's all kinds of reasons why it might make sense to retain a mortgage. For example, you have a £2M house with £1M mortgage, you might invest that £1M somewhere else. If the worst comes to the worst, you downgrade to a £1M house to dispose of your mortgage.

Or you might live in a country with tax deductible mortgage interest payments or a wealth tax.

Anyway - for the OP. It's always a good time to go contracting if you've skills that you think clients want to buy.

[tl97]

You’re only 24, you can take risks. Build up your skills as a permie, and crucially, build up your professional network, them you’ll be ready to go contracting.

[jayn200]

To be honest, my thoughts have changed from my initial post in this thread. PMO isnt for me and i would like to go into Data Analysis/BI, i find that way more interesting.

How much can i expect to earn as a mid level Data Analyst/Bi Analyst?

My only worry is i'm not naturally 'technical minded' enough. Although i can interview well and im good at Excel, currently learning SQL and i'm decent at Macros VBA and i'm willing to put the time in to develop myself. I've had a look on Job websites, but i feel like the rates for perm and contracting are lower than they were before lockdown? eg. im seeing rates vary from as little as 35k perm to 65k perm.

What can i expect to earn as a perm/contractor in this field in the long term in London? Many thanks guys for your inputs.

Mid level data/Bi analyst who knows excel and a little bit of SQL? Realistically you're looking at the lower end of that scale. 35-45k for perm roles if you have 4-5 years experience.

I know it sucks but that's what is realistic.

Excel is an end user tool, it's not an IT tool, it's not really a BI tool.

Spend less time on excel and learn something current. Probably pick up a data visualisation tool. Just pick 1 and get amazing at it. That would be my recommendation. Probably can get to 50-60k in 2 years for permie salaries. Would be ideal if you can create a bi strategy, set up and configure the software, connect to data sources, and build reports. If you have time after all that start picking up complimentary skills such as data warehousing and learn one of the major cloud platforms.

Thats if you want to stay in BI, can always go data science/AI/ML route which is much less IT systems and much more statistics. Might be easier if you're less technologically inclined but still good with logic/math.

As far as contracting goes, no one knows, the entire contract market in London could be gone and never come back. There are other major countries/cities that don't have a contract market. It's not crazy to think that London could end up like that, especially considering whats going on right now with coronavirus and ir35.

[northernladuk]

It’s me again!! I m genuinely interested if you were given 600 a day or 85k plus 10% bonus which one would you take ?!

I’m not interested in the perm is boring because you have to do mid year reviews but rather from a financial point

For me 600 a day is 150k which you can optimise tax wise. Take small salary buy a BTL in company name etc

And when the market falls through and ir35 hits. How much are you earning as a contractor sitting in a bench?

[malvolio]

It’s me again!! I m genuinely interested if you were given 600 a day or 85k plus 10% bonus which one would you take ?!

I’m not interested in the perm is boring because you have to do mid year reviews but rather from a financial point

For me 600 a day is 150k which you can optimise tax wise. Take small salary buy a BTL in company name etc

You have a lot to learn...

HTH....

[LondonPM1]

Depends where you are - London is different rates to others - and experience and skillset.

It's also a bit of a gamble at times; speculating on learning a tech that doesn't take off for example (Lotus Notes, Joost, Google Wave, etc.)

BI isn't going to stand still either. The future isn't easy to predict with BI but proficiency in SQL will be essential. So will an ETL tool for both on prem and cloud solutions, along with at least one reporting tool and either Power BI or Tableau. Plus the obvious part of knowledge of how both on prem and cloud solutions fit together (AWS / Azure / Snowflake are looking like the three main players in the cloud right now but that could well change).

If you only buy one book, buy this: The Data Warehouse Toolkit: The Definitive Guide to Dimensional Modeling, 3rd Edition: Amazon.co.uk: Kimball, Ralph: 8601405019745: Books

I got my copy in 2003 and have used it ever since. All the principles in it still stand today.


As for rates, I'll give this one the classic "it depends". Depends on the market itself (supply and demand) for both perm and contract. Depends on your skillset and willingness to travel and whether you are any good or not, obviously. Wind back five years ago pre IR35/COVID/Brexit doom and a Senior BI Dev in Canary Wharf with no ott specialisation could easily be on £600/day or £85k + benefits & bonus as a perm . Today's market is a lot tougher but the jobs are still there.

It’s me again!! I m genuinely interested if you were given 600 a day or 85k plus 10% bonus which one would you take ?!

I’m not interested in the perm is boring because you have to do mid year reviews but rather from a financial point

For me 600 a day is 150k which you can optimise tax wise. Take small salary buy a BTL in company name etc

[LondonManc]

Sounds like a solid plan, thanks for the tips.

I posed the salary/rate question as one for the future down the line eg. After 5 years.

As you’re extremely experienced in BI, how much do you think I could earn on a perm/contract rate?

Thanks

Depends where you are - London is different rates to others - and experience and skillset.

It's also a bit of a gamble at times; speculating on learning a tech that doesn't take off for example (Lotus Notes, Joost, Google Wave, etc.)

BI isn't going to stand still either. The future isn't easy to predict with BI but proficiency in SQL will be essential. So will an ETL tool for both on prem and cloud solutions, along with at least one reporting tool and either Power BI or Tableau. Plus the obvious part of knowledge of how both on prem and cloud solutions fit together (AWS / Azure / Snowflake are looking like the three main players in the cloud right now but that could well change).

If you only buy one book, buy this: The Data Warehouse Toolkit: The Definitive Guide to Dimensional Modeling, 3rd Edition: Amazon.co.uk: Kimball, Ralph: 8601405019745: Books

I got my copy in 2003 and have used it ever since. All the principles in it still stand today.


As for rates, I'll give this one the classic "it depends". Depends on the market itself (supply and demand) for both perm and contract. Depends on your skillset and willingness to travel and whether you are any good or not, obviously. Wind back five years ago pre IR35/COVID/Brexit doom and a Senior BI Dev in Canary Wharf with no ott specialisation could easily be on £600/day or £85k + benefits & bonus as a perm . Today's market is a lot tougher but the jobs are still there.

[NotAllThere]

Total nonsense. The idea that contractors are perfect and highly experienced cream de la cream is fanciful.

Nah. That's just you.

My only worry is i'm not naturally 'technical minded' enough. Although i can interview well and im good at Excel, currently learning SQL and i'm decent at Macros VBA

With that, the only way you'll be able to make it is if your people skills and sales skills are top notch. Clients want contractors to do something. You might be lucky, like LondonPM1, but the risk is high that you'll fail. Especially so young.

But I do think that given a few more years you'll do fine. Most likely.

[Chilli]

You can expect to earn sweet FA in London in the current environment as a contractor. You're competing with many experienced out of work contractors who are taking well below market rate inside gigs because they pay the bills and will maintain the status quo for the next six months.

I'd say build up your skills as a perm for five years then consider:
1/ Staying perm and working your way up the food chain to management
2/ Going into consultancy where there's more variety and less uncertainty than contracting to see what it's like working at clients that aren't necessarily where you'd like to work location-wise. (i.e. a prelude to contracting)
3/ Take the plunge - with 5-7 years under your belt, you'll stand much more chance of competing as a contractor.

Just my thoughts after 20+ years in BI.

Sounds like a solid plan, thanks for the tips.

I posed the salary/rate question as one for the future down the line eg. After 5 years.

As you’re extremely experienced in BI, how much do you think I could earn on a perm/contract rate?

Thanks

[PCTNN]

Not when you are 50 and with a mortgage and withered away

if I have a mortgage when I'm 50 I will have failed in life.

[LondonManc]

To be honest, my thoughts have changed from my initial post in this thread. PMO isnt for me and i would like to go into Data Analysis/BI, i find that way more interesting.

How much can i expect to earn as a mid level Data Analyst/Bi Analyst?

My only worry is i'm not naturally 'technical minded' enough. Although i can interview well and im good at Excel, currently learning SQL and i'm decent at Macros VBA and i'm willing to put the time in to develop myself. I've had a look on Job websites, but i feel like the rates for perm and contracting are lower than they were before lockdown? eg. im seeing rates vary from as little as 35k perm to 65k perm.

What can i expect to earn as a perm/contractor in this field in the long term in London? Many thanks guys for your inputs.

You can expect to earn sweet FA in London in the current environment as a contractor. You're competing with many experienced out of work contractors who are taking well below market rate inside gigs because they pay the bills and will maintain the status quo for the next six months.

I'd say build up your skills as a perm for five years then consider:
1/ Staying perm and working your way up the food chain to management
2/ Going into consultancy where there's more variety and less uncertainty than contracting to see what it's like working at clients that aren't necessarily where you'd like to work location-wise. (i.e. a prelude to contracting)
3/ Take the plunge - with 5-7 years under your belt, you'll stand much more chance of competing as a contractor.

Just my thoughts after 20+ years in BI.

[malvolio]

Those old farts were predicting gloom in 2000 and then in 2008 so yes its going to work out - When you are young is when you want to take risk in your career and when you have energy to pivot

Not when you are 50 and with a mortgage and withered away

And just remember Perms do get fired as well so there is no safety like there used to be

50 is still quite young from my perspective...?

OTOH I haven't had a mortgage for quite a while...?

But I will stick by the voice of experience over mindless optimism!

[LondonPM1]

Yeah, of course it will all work out fine and you will be one of the lucky ones. I mean, what's the worst that can happen - out of work in three months with no savings or likely income? And in a limited and shrinking market, people with minimal skills in any given field will obviously be in demand over people who know what they are doing.

It's lottery, of course it is, especially now if you've been paying attention. Us old farts are only reminding newcomers that it is as likely to go tits up as it is to work out fine. Seems some people can't cope with that approach!

Those old farts were predicting gloom in 2000 and then in 2008 so yes its going to work out - When you are young is when you want to take risk in your career and when you have energy to pivot

Not when you are 50 and with a mortgage and withered away

And just remember Perms do get fired as well so there is no safety like there used to be

[malvolio]

Total nonsense. The idea that contractors are perfect and highly experienced cream de la cream is fanciful. I’ve seen so many contractors who were useless and fired end up being contractors. And I have worked 15 years in finance London

500 per day is 110k a year which after tax is 80 a year of you dividend strip and optimise the tax. That’s almost 1.5 times premie take home. And you can’t also expense your travel or nice pub lunch as a permie

These figures based on outside ir35 which let’s face it remains a grey area even 20 years after being introduced

I did contracting at 28 and my salary after tax literally doubled. Definitely try and use your youth and motivation. Forget the old farts who will tell you the world is over

Yeah, of course it will all work out fine and you will be one of the lucky ones. I mean, what's the worst that can happen - out of work in three months with no savings or likely income? And in a limited and shrinking market, people with minimal skills in any given field will obviously be in demand over people who know what they are doing.

It's lottery, of course it is, especially now if you've been paying attention. Us old farts are only reminding newcomers that it is as likely to go tits up as it is to work out fine. Seems some people can't cope with that approach!

[PCTNN]

No one wants a mid level analyst in Contracting land, they want a great top notch one who can do everything they require.

What they want and what they get are 2 different things: they might want a top notch contractor but if they pay mid level rates, mid level is what they're going to get.