Reply to: IR35: Planning for April 2021 – should I stay or should I go?

[Fred Bloggs]

There is a lot to be said for people being well paid in return for being completely responsible for their own actions.

The issue is that Employer NI is the easiest tax in the world to increase and the Government doesn't get employer NI when someone isn't an employee.

What we really need to do is fix our system to be sane (with a sane freelancer type scheme) but we won't get that because there is no too much money involved to make changes possible.

Yes, totally agree.

Of course though, energy project professionals on between 600 and 800 or more a day were paying huge amounts of tax both indirectly and directly. As well as directly supporting lots of other businesses like car dealerships, builders, financial advisors, accountants etc....... In turn paying more taxes again.

Alas, you're never going to get a sensible policy out of government where independent professionals are the target demographic. Politicians just cannot understand how such a dynamic sector of the economy works. They can't control it. So they have to change it to control it. They tried for ~20 years.

Remember the "glorified typists" and the "it's only fair" era ? Intellectual pygmies.

In the UK energy project sector, the industry meltdown starting in 2014 from which the industry will never recover, coinciding with the energy major's "race to the bottom" had already triggered the end. Add on top the green lobby. Then put the new IR35 on top and you have the situation you see today.

The loss to the economy and the exchequer since 2014 must be many billions. But it's invisible.

It's sad. But honestly, I couldn't give a toss any more. The people get the government they deserve, by and large.

[eek]

I agree.

But the entire industry wouldn't have even existed at scale for the decades that it did without the army of engineering and project management contractors who moved from job to job.

There are a number of reasons that the UK energy projects industry has almost disappeared. IR35 in it's latest form being just one of them, a pretty minor one though.

For the decades where the UK was a world leading centre for engineering some of the biggest energy projects ever built, the benefit to the wider economy was huge.

Alas, the golden goose has died. Both for the contractor and the wider economy.

There is a lot to be said for people being well paid in return for being completely responsible for their own actions.

The issue is that Employer NI is the easiest tax in the world to increase and the Government doesn't get employer NI when someone isn't an employee.

What we really need to do is fix our system to be sane (with a sane freelancer type scheme) but we won't get that because there is no too much money involved to make changes possible.

[Fred Bloggs]

If I did single out document control I didn't mean it - I meant everything Wood, Jacobs / Bechtel touched.

I used to wander their offices when Taqa was getting up and running (last time I did anything in that sector) and wonder how on earth is XYZ a contractor it doesn't make any sense.

I agree.

But the entire industry wouldn't have even existed at scale for the decades that it did without the army of engineering and project management contractors who moved from job to job.

There are a number of reasons that the UK energy projects industry has almost disappeared. IR35 in it's latest form being just one of them, a pretty minor one though.

For the decades where the UK was a world leading centre for engineering some of the biggest energy projects ever built, the benefit to the wider economy was huge.

Alas, the golden goose has died. Both for the contractor and the wider economy.

[eek]

A bit harsh to single out document control, eek. The vast majority of folks of all disciplines including project management at places like Wood, Jacobs, Bechtel and all the others were always really inside IR35. And we all know why such a high proportion of bums on seats were contractors anyway. In any case, that UK market has virtually died now so it's moot.

If I did single out document control I didn't mean it - I meant everything Wood, Jacobs / Bechtel touched.

I used to wander their offices when Taqa was getting up and running (last time I did anything in that sector) and wonder how on earth is XYZ a contractor it doesn't make any sense.

[Fred Bloggs]

Your industry is one of the industries that utterly abused IR35 to reduce the risks Wood Group others took on projects.

I doubt many people here have sympathy when the work you did was never really outside IR35 as the companies clearly knew (because it's now all inside IR35).

A bit harsh to single out document control, eek. The vast majority of folks of all disciplines including project management at places like Wood, Jacobs, Bechtel and all the others were always really inside IR35. And we all know why such a high proportion of bums on seats were contractors anyway. In any case, that UK market has virtually died now so it's moot.

[eek]

Seems to be quite a lot of hostility which is surprising since I have be polite and simply wanted to share my experience as a fellow contractor.

Clearly this isn't the right place for me, I'll leave you to take each other down.

Your industry is one of the industries that utterly abused IR35 to reduce the risks Wood Group and others took on projects.

I doubt many people here have sympathy when the work you did was never really outside IR35 as the companies clearly knew (because it's now all inside IR35).

[IR35 Lol]

Seems to be quite a lot of hostility which is surprising since I have be polite and simply wanted to share my experience as a fellow contractor.

Clearly this isn't the right place for me, I'll leave you to take each other down.

[IR35 Lol]

I don't quite follow this bit. Are you saying that most roles are still outside IR35 (which would be a good thing if you want to use your limited company)? Or that there aren't many roles at all (inside or outside)? Or was that a typo, i.e. did you mean that most roles are now inside?

Yes, that was supposed to be outside.

[eek]

Document Control

Ah so offshore(ish) work.

Sorry but that was one of the markets that most abused the IR35 regulations and so are very much the area HMRC are keeping an incredibly close eye on.

As for your other complaints I'm sorry but I actually don't see a complaint. What I see is the consequences of the IR35 changes taking effect in an industry that completely abused the rules.

Edit - to add a Commons select committee was asking for evidence a while back but that's been and gone now. Your problem is that everything you are talking about (to me at least) confirms it's working as it should.

[hobnob]

Few contracts inside IR35

I don't quite follow this bit. Are you saying that most roles are still outside IR35 (which would be a good thing if you want to use your limited company)? Or that there aren't many roles at all (inside or outside)? Or was that a typo, i.e. did you mean that most roles are now inside?

[ladymuck]

My experience, without making much of an effort over the past few months:

My observation are:

• Few contracts inside IR35

Reasonable number of roles being advertised, my network was very reactive when I almost thought I'd be finishing before Christmas.

• Recruiters are kicking their heels with not doing a lot of business

I've never known recruiters kicking their heels - they're sales people. You might not be hearing much from them but I bet they're hounding their clients (that's not you).

• Recruiters are not putting rates/salary's on adds

This has been common for years, is this your first week?

• Companies HR departments recruiting again (Employing Direct)

See above

• Price offered for roles are pretty low

Compared to what, when?

• One off relocation fees offered, usually 5k

Relocation costs being covered for contract work?? That's a red flag if ever I saw one. If you're talking about permie work then it's quite common for costs to be capped unless you can prove you're Jesus.

• Jobs come with conditions, i.e. 9 to 5, five days a week, and no remote work.

All jobs come with conditions. That's what an employment contract is.

I closed my ltd company and now looking for something local, prepared at 43 to take low wage to get into something new.

Does anyone know if there is an official method of submitting feedback to the gov?

What exactly are you aiming to feed back? The fact that you didn't like contracting so quit only to find the grass wasn't greener on the permie side? Nothing you're saying is new but rather shows that you have very little real world experience. At nearly 46 I am not much older than you and am surprised that you're reacting more like a member of the snowflake generation than a gen x'er

[IR35 Lol]

I find it hard to believe most of those are now common.

I am reporting my findings, if you are ok than that's great, but believe what i have reported from my own experience!

[IR35 Lol]

I very much doubt that The Treasury would give a flying feck for any of that. They have no interest or involvement regarding what recruiters do in their ads.

it was more the whole change i have experienced rather than the single point you chose to raise.

[Fred Bloggs]

I'm not seeing most of those. Mix with majority inside and I very much doubt recruiters are kicking their heels as they are comission based and it's all that matters to them. Not putting rates on is common and always has been, rates seem market to me, I don't see any relocation fees at all and can't remember ever have and I don't see any at all saying no remote work.

Maybe it's your skillset but I find it hard to believe most of those are now common.

Despite me forever telling agents I am now retired, I am still getting emails telling me about inside IR35 gigs at about 60% of the rate I earned in my last (outside IR35 ended in 2014) UK contract. The energy contracting industry has almost died in the UK now and the rates reflect on shoring of Asian workers in place of UK workers, a lot of whom have retired or moved into new areas of work. I am very very glad I am retired, the UK energy contracting industry no longer seems attractive from what I can see.

[northernladuk]

My observation are:

• Few contracts inside IR35
• Recruiters are kicking their heels with not doing a lot of business
• Recruiters are not putting rates/salary's on adds
• Companies HR departments recruiting again (Employing Direct)
• Price offered for roles are pretty low
• One off relocation fees offered, usually 5k
• Jobs come with conditions, i.e. 9 to 5, five days a week, and no remote work.

I closed my ltd company and now looking for something local, prepared at 43 to take low wage to get into something new.

Does anyone know if there is an official method of submitting feedback to the gov?

I'm not seeing most of those. Mix with majority inside and I very much doubt recruiters are kicking their heels as they are comission based and it's all that matters to them. Not putting rates on is common and always has been, rates seem market to me, I don't see any relocation fees at all and can't remember ever have and I don't see any at all saying no remote work.

Maybe it's your skillset but I find it hard to believe most of those are now common.