Reply to: Am I self-employed?

[stek]

I am in a similar situation. Director of my limited company and restricted by my work visa to be only a self-employed person. I am applying to get NI number 10th time now, and they keep rejecting me, telling me that I am an employee (not a self-employed person) being a director and getting paid from my own company (which are dividends and salaries). I will appeal their recent refusal using the gov.uk's page shared here, stating that I am director but not an employee of my own company..

There’s no uk visa that restricts you like that. A2 nationals used to be but that’s gone now.

Otherwise it’s;

Tier 1 General, any kind of work for anyone.

Tier 1 Entrepreneur, start business but not via agent or intermediary, ie contracting.

Tier 2 General, employed only by sponsor, 5 years for ILR

Tier 2 ICT, employee only, no ILR

Tier 5, lots of different subtypes but generally any work, does not lead directly to settlement.

Also be aware UKVI confuse one man companies with self-employed, and consider you such for visa purposes.

Are you Romanian, Bulgarian or Turkish?

[eek]

I will wait for Stek to appear but it sounds like you are abusing your tier 1 visa if you are working or trying to work as a contractor...

[aposto]

So what would you class me as? I get a monthly salary from my ltd as well as dividends. But I have no employment contract?

I am in a similar situation. Director of my limited company and restricted by my work visa to be only a self-employed person. I am applying to get NI number 10th time now, and they keep rejecting me, telling me that I am an employee (not a self-employed person) being a director and getting paid from my own company (which are dividends and salaries). I will appeal their recent refusal using the gov.uk's page shared here, stating that I am director but not an employee of my own company..

[TheFaQQer]

So there are three things then? Office Holder (which i guess i am as a director), Employee and worker? Is "worker" a standard legal concept as well?

I'm relatively new so trying to understand!

Yes - the GMB-backed Uber drivers who went to employment tribunal were found to be workers, not employees at the first tribunal (appeal is pending).

There is no legal definition of self-employed in employment law, but there is in taxation law.

[l35kee]

An office holder or a worker, depending on whether you meet the worker criteria.

If your company is paying NMW and meeting the rest of their obligations as an employer then you might be an employee as well. If you are an employee and the company isn't, then the company is breaking the law.

So there are three things then? Office Holder (which i guess i am as a director), Employee and worker? Is "worker" a standard legal concept as well?

I'm relatively new so trying to understand!

[TheFaQQer]

So what would you class me as? I get a monthly salary from my ltd as well as dividends. But I have no employment contract?

An office holder or a worker, depending on whether you meet the worker criteria.

If your company is paying NMW and meeting the rest of their obligations as an employer then you might be an employee as well. If you are an employee and the company isn't, then the company is breaking the law.

[l35kee]

From your link: "If a person does other work that’s not related to being a director, they may have an employment contract and get employment rights."

So they may be an employee, they may not. In my case, I am not an employee.

If you want to be an employee of your company then great. I don't want to be, I'm not an employee, I'm not paying NMW, I'm not going to push my business down the route of needing to consider workplace pension and employment law - each to their own though.

Again - show me the legislation that says that I am employee. It doesn't exist.

So what would you class me as? I get a monthly salary from my ltd as well as dividends. But I have no employment contract?

[TheFaQQer]

Yes you are if you do anything else for the company than going to board meetings, signing off documents and making strategic decisions.

https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/director

Doing IT stuff for a client is not within the typical duties of a director.

From your link: "If a person does other work that’s not related to being a director, they may have an employment contract and get employment rights."

So they may be an employee, they may not. In my case, I am not an employee.

If you want to be an employee of your company then great. I don't want to be, I'm not an employee, I'm not paying NMW, I'm not going to push my business down the route of needing to consider workplace pension and employment law - each to their own though.

Again - show me the legislation that says that I am employee. It doesn't exist.

[m0n1k3r]

I'm not working for myself. I am not an employee (else I would have a contract of employment, receive NMW, have to be enrolled in a pension, have employee rights and so forth). I am an officer of my company.

That doesn't mean that some people aren't employees of their company (I know some people who have a contract of employment and do all the rest), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are an employee of the company.

Yes you are if you do anything else for the company than going to board meetings, signing off documents and making strategic decisions.

https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/director

Doing IT stuff for a client is not within the typical duties of a director.

[VectraMan]

Company officers, directors are on different terms compared to employees for NICs for example. Bizarre, the UK tax system is broken. Fact.

No argument there. The SA form is impossible to fill out if you take its literal meaning.

From a purely tax point of view we're not self-employed, as that means a particular thing. But in a more general sense as other people would understand it, we are. If you ever find yourself in the unfortunate circumstance of going to the Job Centre to sign on*, trying to explain that you're not self-employed but a Ltd. company director but not an employee but haven't worked for 6 months so please give me free money, you'll get nothing but blank looks. Being self-employed they understand.

*I'm not PC. I did it once after 6 months on the bench, and only for 3 weeks.

[Fred Bloggs]

I understood that an owner/worker/director or the Ltd Co was an officer of the company rather than an employee? But the HMRC page linked to seems to take a different view. Company officers, directors are on different terms compared to employees for NICs for example. Bizarre, the UK tax system is broken. Fact.

[TheFaQQer]

Yes you are.

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

I'm not working for myself. I am not an employee (else I would have a contract of employment, receive NMW, have to be enrolled in a pension, have employee rights and so forth). I am an officer of my company.

That doesn't mean that some people aren't employees of their company (I know some people who have a contract of employment and do all the rest), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are an employee of the company.

Show me the law that supports that website - it doesn't exist.

[northernladuk]

Yes you are.

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

If we were employees in the true sense we'd be having to pay ourselves NMW and the pension malarkey which we don't.

[Fred Bloggs]

Yes you are.

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

Hmmmm.............

Many of these also apply if you own a limited company but you’re not classed as self-employed by HMRC. Instead you’re both an owner and employee of your company.

[m0n1k3r]

You aren't necessarily an employee of the company - I'm not an employee of any company. But you still need to complete the employment page

Yes you are.

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself