Reply to: Outside IR35

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

You should also consider whether or not the contract you've been given is wholly representative of your working practices - if it isn't then the contract being written to be outside IR35 means squat

If only the inverse was true too (as far as HMRC is concerned anyway)...

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I have just started a new job, I have my assignment contract, being assessed by a respectable professional firm to see whether if I fall outside or inside ir35. They say that according to the assignment I have provided, they have checked the clauses to see if I fall outside ir35 and they say those are strongly covered and that the contract falls outside IR35, and I would need to pay some money to get a review. My question is, can I rely on what they say, ie if they say I fall outside IR35 and I have their review, does that mean that I am definitely outside IR35.
Thanks
Bill

You should also consider whether or not the contract you've been given is wholly representative of your working practices - if it isn't then the contract being written to be outside IR35 means squat

[jamesbrown]

I'm sure they'll give options of what to do should it not be IR35 friendly.

Yes, lube comes in several flavours.

[Dan@OrangeGenie]

Bit late to be re-writing contracts now that he's started the role.

True, I thought an overview of what they do may help.

I'm sure they'll give options of what to do should it not be IR35 friendly.

[TheFaQQer]

Hi Bill,

I can put you in touch with some IR35 review specialists who offer to re-write contracts right through to defence cases against Hector

Just PM me and I'll pass on your details

Bit late to be re-writing contracts now that he's started the role.

[Dan@OrangeGenie]

I have just started a new job, I have my assignment contract, being assessed by a respectable professional firm to see whether if I fall outside or inside ir35. They say that according to the assignment I have provided, they have checked the clauses to see if I fall outside ir35 and they say those are strongly covered and that the contract falls outside IR35, and I would need to pay some money to get a review. My question is, can I rely on what they say, ie if they say I fall outside IR35 and I have their review, does that mean that I am definitely outside IR35.
Thanks
Bill

Hi Bill,

I can put you in touch with some IR35 review specialists who offer to re-write contracts right through to defence cases against Hector

Just PM me and I'll pass on your details

[jamesbrown]

I don't think it is pedantry to pick up on the word 'job'. I think you need to get into a mindset and these, seemingly, small things help to do that.

On the project I'm on we are all asked to fill in a sheet every two weeks to indicate where we will be on any given day. I'm just about the only contractor that puts 'Out of Office' when I'm not going to be in. I despair at the number who put 'Annual Leave'.

What's annual about it?

All this is perfectly true - attitude matters - but I also wouldn't overdo the extrapolation from a relatively innocuous term. At least the OP is asking appropriate questions and having their contract reviewed so, while I agree that poor choice terminology can allude to a questionable mindset, I wouldn't over-egg this, especially in a forum that is intended to provide advice and increase the collective consciousness among n00bs (and hence reduce the need for excessive legislation in the long-term). Scaring away the most egregious of muppets is fine, of course...

[JRCT]

I don't think it is pedantry to pick up on the word 'job'. I think you need to get into a mindset and these, seemingly, small things help to do that.

On the project I'm on we are all asked to fill in a sheet every two weeks to indicate where we will be on any given day. I'm just about the only contractor that puts 'Out of Office' when I'm not going to be in. I despair at the number who put 'Annual Leave'.

What's annual about it?

[TheFaQQer]

Indeed, the word job is synonymous for a whole manner of workplace engagements:

• The police officer I know told me how many jobs he had to attend last night
• My window cleaner didn't want a brew this morning because he'd got to get off to another job
• My builder friend has got a massive job on at the minute, doesn't have time for anything else
• When I consulted, I'd give my wife a heads up if I'd got a job miles away

And the above aren't even made up. To pretend job is synonymous with employment is just daft

If you have done the research and understand what makes a contract inside or outside IR35, then switching the word "job" and "contract" isn't a big deal.

If you haven't, and you don't know what HMRC might look for in an investigation, and you unwittingly use the wrong one then you'll be in trouble.

I suspect that the OP is the latter rather than the former.

[vwdan]

I think you're being unnecessarily pedantic, even for you . Lots of people refer to contracts as jobs, or gigs etc, not just in IT but in other trades too.

Indeed, the word job is synonymous for a whole manner of workplace engagements:

• The police officer I know told me how many jobs he had to attend last night
• My window cleaner didn't want a brew this morning because he'd got to get off to another job
• My builder friend has got a massive job on at the minute, doesn't have time for anything else
• When I consulted, I'd give my wife a heads up if I'd got a job miles away

And the above aren't even made up. To pretend job is synonymous with employment is just daft

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Because you think your contract is a job.

I think you're being unnecessarily pedantic, even for you . Lots of people refer to contracts as jobs, or gigs etc, not just in IT but in other trades too.

[northernladuk]

IR35 is to differentiate between those in business and 'disguised employees'. My company just started delivering services to a new client - vs - I just started a new job

Totally ^ this and JB's comments. Sounds picky but when you turn up on site and just fall in to acting like a permie or become part and parcel you are in danger of putting yourself inside. You do as you are told (D&C) you expect them to give you work (MoO), don't appreciate you can offer substitutes (RoS) and you've shafted yourself. If you don't think like a business why should you be taxed like one.

[mudskipper]

What do you mean by "I can tell you that youve failed"

IR35 is to differentiate between those in business and 'disguised employees'. My company just started delivering services to a new client - vs - I just started a new job

[northernladuk]

What do you mean by "I can tell you that youve failed"

Because you think your contract is a job. It's my niggle that people can't use the right terminology when contracting. How are they supposed to defend themselves against HMRC when they don't even think or act like a business. I'm pulling your leg but it still irks me.

[jamesbrown]

What do you mean by "I can tell you that youve failed"

He's being picky about your choice of terminology (i.e. "job").

You need to understand that the status of a particular contract depends entirely on your working practices, and a review of the contract (and, ideally, a description of your working practices) is simply a qualified opinion and applies only insofar as the contract and any other information you provide is a complete and accurate reflection of your working practices. Professional opinions vary. There are absolutely no guarantees about the status of a particular contract until you have a tribunal decision, at which point it's obviously too late. Thus, you should certainly have a contract review as part of the due diligence of assessing your status, but you should also be mindful of your working practices going forward. You may also choose to join IPSE+ or take out other forms of insurance to mitigate against the costs of an investigation and its outcome.