Inside IR35 not working - Scam Alert

[Protagoras]

https://assets.publishing.service.go...d_Judgment.pdf

Thanks eek. Are you aware of such an ET ruling in relation to an umbrella company worker?

[eek]

Thanks eek. Are you aware of such an ET ruling in relation to an umbrella company worker?

Nope because no sane Umbrella would let it get that far if there was a chance of losing (and they would lose).

The risk stems from an agency failing that is sufficiently big it takes the umbrella with it - and while we've never seen that so far there are examples in the past where a end client failure took the agency down days later.

[Protagoras]

Nope because no sane Umbrella would let it get that far if there was a chance of losing (and they would lose).

The risk stems from an agency failing that is sufficiently big it takes the umbrella with it - and while we've never seen that so far there are examples in the past where a end client failure took the agency down days later.

And unless I am mistaken, there is insufficient demand from workers for an insurer to introduce a product to address this risk.

The title of this thread might suggest that there is a 'scam' being described. There isn't. This is just how the model works.
If one is not comfortable with the risk, time to move on ...

[northernladuk]

And unless I am mistaken, there is insufficient demand from workers for an insurer to introduce a product to address this risk.

The title of this thread might suggest that there is a 'scam' being described. There isn't. This is just how the model works.
If one is not comfortable with the risk, time to move on ...

The title is there because OP doesn't understand the model and doesn't like he it so he's assumed it's a scam. Just like when something happens to posters they don't like they assume it's illegal.

[SichMan6570]

At a bare minimum you should expect to receive:-

From the agency

• A Key Information Document with assignment details, assignment rate &etc (often provided to the agency by the umbrella but owned by the agency) before you start work and after any material changes such as change in NI

From the umbrella

• A right to work check
• An illustration document - with an assignment->gross pay->net pay calculation showing all deductions with some degree of personalisation for your tax code/student loan etc
• A contract of employment containing clear details of employment conditions, holiday entitlement, grievance procedures &etc- which you will be asked to sign
• Assignment schedules as appropriate
• Employee manual - sometimes online
• Each pay period - a payslip (also accompanied by reconciliation statement if all details are not on the payslip)*.
• Consistent and frequent reminders to take your holiday entitlement

Now, most of these documents are required before you start work, however in the real world the interview to start date sometimesis so quick the paperwork trails behind, and you therefore effectively might end up starting work "at risk"



*These should cover (and indeed must cover if the umbrella is an FCSA member)

• assignment rate->
• employment costs (Employers NI, pension, apprenticeship levy, pension contributions, deductions for holiday pay (accrued or advanced), any agreed salary sacrifice, umbrella margin, any other agreed costs)->
• gross pay (sometimes broken down into NMW+"bonus")->
• Employee NI
• PAYE Tax
• any other deductions (e.g. student loan, court ordered deductions
• Net pay - what should appear in your bank account

Thank you so so much

[cojak]

And unless I am mistaken, there is insufficient demand from workers for an insurer to introduce a product to address this risk.

The title of this thread might suggest that there is a 'scam' being described. There isn't. This is just how the model works.
If one is not comfortable with the risk, time to move on ...

My reading of the ‘scam’ was the lack of proper paperwork and due diligence work that the umbrella should be doing.

I agree that the model is rubbish, but you don’t need umbrella to make it worse.

[SichMan6570]

The title is there because OP doesn't understand the model and doesn't like he it so he's assumed it's a scam. Just like when something happens to posters they don't like they assume it's illegal.

I don't assume its a scam and certainly not illegal. I just want to minimise /optimise my risk profile for taking on this engagement. As mentioned earlier inside IR35 arrangement with umbrella company is full of potential financial risks which I would rather do without. Case in point called PSL umbrella and they said they would not sue the agency for non payment of fees. So NO debt servicing capability and my rights under the law as an individual are extremely limited.

[northernladuk]

I don't assume its a scam and certainly not illegal.

The title of thread says otherwise.

I just want to minimise /optimise my risk profile for taking on this engagement. As mentioned earlier inside IR35 arrangement with umbrella company is full of potential financial risks which I would rather do without. Case in point called PSL umbrella and they said they would not sue the agency for non payment of fees. So NO debt servicing capability and my rights under the law as an individual are extremely limited.

Indeed and no one is pleased about it hence the massive uproar from those contractors that had a clue when this was floated many years ago. The model isn't great but did exist for some cases which were inside. Now it's become mainstream it's just rubbish. The best of no worlds.

This comment made me smile and gave indication of exactly where this thread was going to go, and it did.

I have noticed more and more inside IR35 roles so I thought why not try one of these

You do not think 'why not try one of these'. You do you absolutely everything you can to avoid it for all the points and many more. Anyone that knows inside contracting will have guessed it wouldn't go well for you with that approach. It's not an engagement method that's an option, we've been forced in to and we shouldn't be happy about it.

[Protagoras]

Case in point called PSL umbrella and they said they would not sue the agency for non payment of fees.

I wonder whether there are any brollies that would commit to debt recovery, or even to sell the debt to the employee.

I’ve heard that some brollies don’t even chase overdue payments.

[eek]

I wonder whether there are any brollies that would commit to debt recovery, or even to sell the debt to the employee.

I’ve heard that some brollies don’t even chase overdue payments.

Think of reasons that get you on to an Agency's PSL.

Not rocking the boat by chasing paymentd and ensuring everyone has opted out of Agency Regulations would be 2 things that would allow an agency to protect themselves if something went wrong with an end client.