Outside IR35. Who suffers if it's the wrong call?

[CalmEddie]

Hi, I tried searching and browsing forum search and via google but to no avail. Sorry.

My ClientCo is desperate to keep me (but I prefer outside IR35). They've worked hard to make sure the assessments are saying outside IR35, there's a planned break, other changes etc. One person however is saying it's above their risk appetite and wants to insist in inside.

A part of continued discussion, I wanted to have a risk conversation but I'm not clear.

My question is: Who's risk is it? If outside later becomes determined by HMRC as inside, who feels the pain? The clientco, the agent, my company, me as an individual? All of the above?

[wattaj]

Hi, I tried searching and browsing forum search and via google but to no avail. Sorry.

My ClientCo is desperate to keep me (but I prefer outside IR35). They've worked hard to make sure the assessments are saying outside IR35, there's a planned break, other changes etc. One person however is saying it's above their risk appetite and wants to insist in inside.

A part of continued discussion, I wanted to have a risk conversation but I'm not clear.

My question is: Who's risk is it? If outside later becomes determined by HMRC as inside, who feels the pain? The clientco, the agent, my company, me as an individual? All of the above?

The client.

[eek]

The client.

+1 but the client will only be paying from April 2020 onwards (however, HMRC are continually threatening to include all "outside" contractors when pushing for tax).

I think you just need to explain it clearly that while they bear the risk from April onwards, you are already carrying a lot of risk for the entire time you have been there until April and without an outside determination cannot continue unless it's outside.

[WordIsBond]

I think you just need to explain it clearly that while they bear the risk from April onwards, you are already carrying a lot of risk for the entire time you have been there until April and without an outside determination cannot continue unless it's outside.

This, in spades. If they start talking about risk counter with how much risk they are asking you to take if they insist on inside, and you can't do that.

Also, risk can be mitigated. I believe QDOS is now selling insurance for clients.

[CalmEddie]

Thanks guys, that's helpful to know.

I've only been here since Oct and expiry is end Mar anyway, so the issue is one of new contract for the future. They've really worked hard to make sure it's possible, including proposing putting named substitute through security and giving them a badge.

It's just the one person unhappy to underwrite it and insisting the CEO signs it off. Very, very big clientco, so achieving that will take 3 months. I just need this objector to grow a pair.

I believe QDOS is now selling insurance for clients.

That is very useful to know.

[northernladuk]

If they are insistent on keeping you personally then I assume they are struggling with allowing a substitute. Do they need to keep you because you are part and parcel or they want you to just get on with whatever they give you to do.

If any of those are even close I can see why they might be worried about the risk as an outside determination is likely to be fudged to keep you rather the reflect the role.

How long have you been there?

[CalmEddie]

Do they need to keep you because you are part and parcel or they want you to just get on with whatever they give you to do.

They want me to improve their management. Happy for me to find things that need fixing, write the spec, analyse, build and deploy methods and processes. Provide training, audit.

[northernladuk]

They want me to improve their management. Happy for me to find things that need fixing, write the spec, analyse, build and deploy methods and processes. Provide training, audit.

Start with the guy that won't accept the risk. You've got 6 weeks to get rid of him.

[NotAllThere]

So they need you to deal with, e.g. the risk of hiring contractors. If the contract is clearly one of services, then there is no issue. They just need to make sure their contracts are iron-clad. It's worked that way for contractors since 2000...

[CalmEddie]

Start with the guy that won't accept the risk. You've got 6 weeks to get rid of him.