Sainsbury's

[simes]

Sainsbury's IR35 Delight for Contractors as Food Group Serves Up a Treat

[eek]

Sainsbury's IR35 Delight for Contractors as Food Group Serves Up a Treat

So instead they will use CEST and get the same result.

[edison]

So instead they will use CEST and get the same result.

Right idea in principle but doesn't really help given the many well documented flaws in CEST. One of the main ones being that HMRC won't even accept the results of their own tool at a tax tribunal...

[PCTNN]

Right idea in principle but doesn't really help given the many well documented flaws in CEST. One of the main ones being that HMRC won't even accept the results of their own tool at a tax tribunal...

So it's starting to sound like there is no real way of "winning" against hmrc. Or at least not yet. Shame for all the contractors legitimately outside ir35.

[eek]

So it's starting to sound like there is no real way of "winning" against hmrc. Or at least not yet. Shame for all the contractors legitimately outside ir35.

You can't win - HMRC have discovered that going against contractors is hard work - it's better to go against the companies (far bigger payout) and show how their processes failed resulting in them incorrectly marking people as outside when they were not.

Why do you think I've spent 2 years ensuring I can be away from this clusterf*** when it's implemented.

[edison]

You can't win - HMRC have discovered that going against contractors is hard work - it's better to go against the companies (far bigger payout) and show how their processes failed resulting in them incorrectly marking people as outside when they were not.

Why do you think I've spent 2 years ensuring I can be away from this clusterf*** when it's implemented.

I think it's more a case that a large proportion of existing contractors will long term find it hard to get outside IR35 gigs.

I don't know the proportion of public sector gigs that are outside IR35 but I'm guessing it's somewhere between 25-50%. I'm trying to work out if the private sector proportion will end up being roughly the same come 2021/22.

[simes]

So instead they will use CEST and get the same result.

Have you taken it for a spin since its (part) update?

I have and I am found outside, even while stating the client can reject a substitute. No it doesn't consider MoO, but it is better.

[LetterBox]

It's simply a case of risk vs reward. Always has been.

We determine outside for the reward, and put structures in place, we know CEST is rubbish so ignore it. We have insurance in place and ensure good working practices. So we mitigate the risk of HMRC getting lucky in court. This balance is enough for most contractors to continue to operate.

The risk in April is that the client on day one will not look to mitigate the risk, they have to use CEST, which we know is broken. So the risk is high as they have not mitigated it. The reward for them to determine outside is perhaps a competitive edge by securing the best contractors, but if no other competitors are doing this and even if they are if the reward is actually measured as not that great then it's no real reward. If all companies secure poor contractors then no client is any worse off.

Companies know the contractors who get the job done, these will be offered perm or larger rates in umbrella. The rest can suck it up.

Business has misused the contractor market for years, it was however a win-win all round. Now there is an actual consequence of using contractors in this way, they're not interested. The level of service will suffer, but not to any significant level for the business. The contractor will suffer more unless they read the writing on the wall and start to skill and provide services as a consultant more than just a bum on a seat. The individual has to act, business are shutting up shop to PSCs. Actual consultants will see rate jumps through umbrella, the bum on seat jobs will be begrudgingly taken by ex PSCs, these will be temp jobs, these people will look around for perm jobs.

The contractor market will go back to what you'd actually imagine it should be for.

Maybe I should start tempuk.com

[LetterBox]

Have you taken it for a spin since its (part) update?

I have and I am found outside, even while stating the client can reject a substitute. No it doesn't consider MoO, but it is better.

CEST will have periodic reviews to tighten the net.

[JohntheBike]

CEST will have periodic reviews to tighten the net.

agreed