It's Not Fine -- Specific Flaws With the New IR35 Tool

[northernladuk]

You clearly work in a different field to me as those would be the answers I would expect any client of mine to pick (heck they are bringing me in as the subject matter expert / specialist to configure and customise a particular product for them )... Hence my concern that these 2 very similar answers have different results (especially as answer 4 is merely the client being more honest than answer 1).



Likewise - which is why the question is so annoying...

I think there is context missing here. You three might be like that but what about your average coder or PM. You guys are slightly different to the norm. The vast majority are going to have problems with those questions.

[WordIsBond]

You guys are slightly different to the norm.

One of the nicest things anyone has said about me all day.

You're right, of course. Many will end up with "The worker and other people employed by the end client agree how the work needs to be done." I haven't tested to see how that impacts things. I'm guessing it will evaluate out to "partial control" for most people.

Most people don't have a completely unfettered right of substitution and are not completely free of SDC. That's why the absence of questions about MoO is particularly egregious. I'm surprised people have ignored that, it's the biggest flaw in the tool by far, IMO, and weights things very strongly towards an inside ruling for a lot of people who should be outside based on absence of MoO.

[Guesstimator]

That's why this tool as currently constructed is deadly in the public sector but is actually probably not bad for those in the private sector right now. We can use it to show we are outside and, if we really are in business for ourselves, we can easily choose and defend answers that keep us outside.

If they roll out these stupid PS rules into the private sector, it will be trouble.

I think there is context missing here. You three might be like that but what about your average coder or PM. You guys are slightly different to the norm. The vast majority are going to have problems with those questions.

I'm a natural born pessimist but, as I say, I think everyone will have problems with that question simply due to the intransigence (I'm being kind) of your average HR person.

It's vague enough that something like following a "process" on where to save a file on a client network would be caught. Prior to even getting to actual working practices, HR will torpedo any avenue that there might be come back on them. They're true artists at it.

As has been said by you lot already numerous times, this is a process of educating the end client...I'm just not hopeful of that when it comes to HR, be it public or private sector.

Edit: you're completely correct on MoO too, I agree. It's been avoided very blatently.

[RonBW]

One of the intentions (I thought) was that the tool could / would be used for clients to use in advance of advertising the role, so that they clearly know whether it is inside or outside IR35.

The tool still requires the person completing the form (end client) to choose whether the worker will be operating via another party, a limited company, self-employed or partnership - which they can't possibly know until they have advertised the role, had applicants to the agency, and accepted candidates at the very earliest.

Choosing "self employed" will give a different answer to choosing "limited", even taking the path of least resistance to get to an outside determination, so the tool cannot be used effectively for future engagements.

[northernladuk]

One of the nicest things anyone has said about me all day.

I know. I'm such a failure. Won't happen again sorry

But I just thought it was worth pointing out you too aren't run of the mill like the rest us.

You're right, of course .

Thats the nicest thing anyone has said to me in... Oh.. Ever?

[WordIsBond]

Thats the nicest thing anyone has said to me in... Oh.. Ever?

Best print and frame it.

[MrMarkyMark]

Yes the killer question for SDC is this one

Once the worker starts the engagement, can the end client decide how the work is done?

1) The worker decides how the work needs to be done without any input from the end client =outside
4) The end client can't decide how the work needs to be done because it's a highly skilled role = at best undetermined...

And the bit I can't understand is why answer 4 is even there. It doesn't add anything to the first answer other than confusion...

I gave that answer and still come up outside

Both quite often apply to me though..?

[northernladuk]

Best print and frame it.

Pff. I've just seen your FTFY in the other thread. I ain't talking to you any more

[eek]

I gave that answer and still come up outside

Both quite often apply to me though..?

That depends on how many times you've played with the tool...

I got to the point where with all subsequent answers being equal in at least 3 different scenarios answering 1 gave me an outside answer and 4 gave me undetermined....

[northernladuk]

That depends on how many times you've played with the tool...
.

<snigger>