It's Not Fine -- Specific Flaws With the New IR35 Tool

[MrMarkyMark]

guidance notes for who? you? who will not be on the hook for the liability or for the PS client who will?

How about some guidance notes for all that need to understand them.


Don't get your point

[LondonManc]

Yes the killer question for SDC is this one

Once the worker starts the engagement, can the end client decide how the work is done?

1) The worker decides how the work needs to be done without any input from the end client =outside
4) The end client can't decide how the work needs to be done because it's a highly skilled role = at best undetermined...

And the bit I can't understand is why answer 4 is even there. It doesn't add anything to the first answer other than confusion...

What are the other two options?

If 4 is true, but 1 is not true, who decides?

[Quality]

Beta?

Still showing as BETA at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-em...status-for-tax

When will the final version be published and can the results of the BETA be used/relied upon?

[SueEllen]

Still showing as BETA at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-em...status-for-tax

When will the final version be published and can the results of the BETA be used/relied upon?

Gov.uk sites stay in beta for ages.

[MPwannadecentincome]

When this list is done then what.... write to our MPs? Tell IPSE?

I did see an email from IPSE asking for feedback on the tool by email as stated here: https://www.ipse.co.uk/news/hmrc-rel...us-service-ess

[WordIsBond]

When this list is done then what.... write to our MPs? Tell IPSE?

I did see an email from IPSE asking for feedback on the tool by email as stated here: https://www.ipse.co.uk/news/hmrc-rel...us-service-ess

I've already written my MP. Probably absolutely pointless.

HMRC says it is beta and welcomes feedback. Would be nice if IPSE or someone would give it to them.

[willendure]

This must be the most thoroughly tested piece of software HMRC have ever produced, thanks to all the experts on here putting it through its paces.

Can you all do the same for Basic PAYE Tools? I haven't submitted a PAYE return in a good while - not had time to try and fix that pile of crap since it stopped working a while back.

[Quality]

Time is ebbing away

Has anybody actually got their PSB to go through the tool with them and come up with a sensible decision based on the result? My client is indecisive and risk averse and despite talking about IR35 for weeks they have so far failed to use the tool for any of the contractors on-site, despite saying for weeks that is what they will do.

With my 2 weeks notice period they have only effectively got until next Friday to make a determination, or I could just walk out on 31st March and not return (will be paid on 5th April for that).

Would be nice to see some PSBs actually using and accepting the result of the tool on an individual basis.

[Andy Hallett]

Has anybody actually got their PSB to go through the tool with them and come up with a sensible decision based on the result? My client is indecisive and risk averse and despite talking about IR35 for weeks they have so far failed to use the tool for any of the contractors on-site, despite saying for weeks that is what they will do.

With my 2 weeks notice period they have only effectively got until next Friday to make a determination, or I could just walk out on 31st March and not return (will be paid on 5th April for that).

Would be nice to see some PSBs actually using and accepting the result of the tool on an individual basis.

Yes, the vast majority of our clients have been doing this.

[MPwannadecentincome]

story from Contractor Calculator

.......

How does the tool perform using real cases?

ContractorCalculator put each of the 21 historical IR35 court cases through HMRC’s tool and the conclusions are:

For 27% of the court cases, HMRC simply says “Unknown”
10% of cases are being given a pass despite a judge failing the case in court.

Further testing of common scenarios also revealed some surprising results:

Contractors who are significantly controlled, or moved about from task to task without it being in their contract, can pass the test, contrary to what the case law says. There is no case law to support this. “Tail-end Charlies” should be classic fails
A significant number of project based contractors who should easily pass the test, are given the status “unknown”.
Whilst it appears that the tool is now hooked up to an analysis engine it is still failing to cover key areas of employment case law and is simply not fit-for-purpose.