Reply to: It's Not Fine -- Specific Flaws With the New IR35 Tool

[eek]

HMRC don't have an issue with PSB's using contractors, they just want us all paying tax like permies. Pressuring the PSB's with things like the status tool and behind the scenes comm's to execs are the means to the end.

Nope HMRC do have a problem with contractors - and its a simple one. They don't understand that we are not employees and are trying to pigeon everyone as if they were employees even when they are not.

[DaveB]

Not quite. HMRC are actively trying to dissuade PS bodies from recruiting contractors....

HMRC don't have an issue with PSB's using contractors, they just want us all paying tax like permies. Pressuring the PSB's with things like the status tool and behind the scenes comm's to execs are the means to the end.

[LondonManc]

Not quite. HMRC are actively trying to dissuade PS bodies from recruiting contractors....

What do they want, green graduate consultants on three times the price for 10% of the skills and experience?

[RonBW]

So, get a QDOS outside declaration, working practices agreed outside and there will be a good chance you'll win a court case?

If your working practices are outside then you will win the case every time (on the presumption that you have competent lawyers)

[eek]

In theory yes, in practice who knows. HMRC are actively encouraging PS bodies to throw their contractors under a bus with regard to IR35.

Not quite. HMRC are actively trying to dissuade PS bodies from recruiting contractors....

[DaveB]

So, get a QDOS outside declaration, working practices agreed outside and there will be a good chance you'll win a court case?

In theory yes, in practice who knows. HMRC are actively encouraging PS bodies to throw their contractors under a bus with regard to IR35.

[LondonManc]

Not just us who have issue with it.

Accounting Web - IR35 Tool test Drive

Needs registration to read the full article but they aren't spammy.

Summary is that it is inaccurate, doesn't follow or simply ignores case law, displays HMRC bias towards employment and should not be relied upon regardless of the answer given.

So, get a QDOS outside declaration, working practices agreed outside and there will be a good chance you'll win a court case?

[DaveB]

Not just us who have issue with it.

Accounting Web - IR35 Tool test Drive

Needs registration to read the full article but they aren't spammy.

Summary is that it is inaccurate, doesn't follow or simply ignores case law, displays HMRC bias towards employment and should not be relied upon regardless of the answer given.

[RonBW]

The Beta is the live tool.

Since GDS got hold of anything web related in Govt. everything is Beta now.

Yes, I know.

I meant that the article came out very quickly for it to be used on the live tool, so was asking whether it was done against the HMRC ESS site (which says beta) or whether it was against the private beta tests that went on.

Given the date on the article, I would guess that it was against the private beta rather than the public live (beta)

[DaveB]

Given the date on that post, was it referring to the beta or the live version of the tool?

I know I've read something on their site which was about the beta, which looks similar to this post, but they may have done the same tests with the live tool as well.

The Beta is the live tool.

Since GDS got hold of anything web related in Govt. everything is Beta now.

Yes, I know.

[RonBW]

Given the date on that post, was it referring to the beta or the live version of the tool?

I know I've read something on their site which was about the beta, which looks similar to this post, but they may have done the same tests with the live tool as well.

[MPwannadecentincome]

story from Contractor Calculator

.......

How does the tool perform using real cases?

ContractorCalculator put each of the 21 historical IR35 court cases through HMRC’s tool and the conclusions are:

For 27% of the court cases, HMRC simply says “Unknown”
10% of cases are being given a pass despite a judge failing the case in court.

Further testing of common scenarios also revealed some surprising results:

Contractors who are significantly controlled, or moved about from task to task without it being in their contract, can pass the test, contrary to what the case law says. There is no case law to support this. “Tail-end Charlies” should be classic fails
A significant number of project based contractors who should easily pass the test, are given the status “unknown”.
Whilst it appears that the tool is now hooked up to an analysis engine it is still failing to cover key areas of employment case law and is simply not fit-for-purpose.

[Andy Hallett]

Has anybody actually got their PSB to go through the tool with them and come up with a sensible decision based on the result? My client is indecisive and risk averse and despite talking about IR35 for weeks they have so far failed to use the tool for any of the contractors on-site, despite saying for weeks that is what they will do.

With my 2 weeks notice period they have only effectively got until next Friday to make a determination, or I could just walk out on 31st March and not return (will be paid on 5th April for that).

Would be nice to see some PSBs actually using and accepting the result of the tool on an individual basis.

Yes, the vast majority of our clients have been doing this.

[Quality]

Time is ebbing away

Has anybody actually got their PSB to go through the tool with them and come up with a sensible decision based on the result? My client is indecisive and risk averse and despite talking about IR35 for weeks they have so far failed to use the tool for any of the contractors on-site, despite saying for weeks that is what they will do.

With my 2 weeks notice period they have only effectively got until next Friday to make a determination, or I could just walk out on 31st March and not return (will be paid on 5th April for that).

Would be nice to see some PSBs actually using and accepting the result of the tool on an individual basis.

[willendure]

This must be the most thoroughly tested piece of software HMRC have ever produced, thanks to all the experts on here putting it through its paces.

Can you all do the same for Basic PAYE Tools? I haven't submitted a PAYE return in a good while - not had time to try and fix that pile of crap since it stopped working a while back.