Another one bites the dust (NHS IT Project)

[sal]

What puzzles me is how 3rd line IT support is not BoS & BAU and not subject to SDC surely they are in IR35 already regardless of new rules?

What about MoO? Wasn't the lack of it enough to be outside IR35 or did i miss something?

[LondonManc]

I do wish people would stop with the lazy generalisations. You haven't considered the possibility that the client needs a fluid resource for a variable workload during a period of major change and has recruited contractors to fill the gaps? Or that those contractors are sufficiently skilled - let's face it, 3rd line support are rarely dummies in any establishment - to decide how best to fix whatever it is that's gone wrong?

You are in or out of IR35 based on the terms of your engagement and working practices. BaU does not mean you are automatically caught: arguably any coder and BA is far more likely to be caught since they will have direction and supervision in their day-to-day work.

Nobody is doubting their ability; but the D&C element is there for sure - they're in a reactive role with work given to them. Supervision could be the key to their inside nature and as for working practices, I can imagine that getting interesting. Similarly you can imagine the justification from them - "we're third line, so we're specialists, so we're outside of SDC and therefore outside IR35". Nobody's going to question it because nobody wants to be inside IR35.

[mnctraining]

Not sure I agree with this

"The agent said that ‘going brolly’ not only heads off IR35 from April 6th, but also claimed that it heads off HMRC investigating “your [IR35] status for periods worked prior to April 6th.”

Perhaps I've kept myself outside IR35 too long, but I've always seen Umbrellas as accepting your role is caught inside and pursuing the option that seems best financially to you personally (and if you believe the claims of keeping 60/70/80% of your "salary")

As for going umbrella and never having to worry about retrospective, I don't see that ever goes away, threat is always there whilst IR35 is around, HMRC can challenge any contract you have worked on in the past, regardless of what you declared the status to be. How confident you are that your due diligence protects you is another matter

[northernladuk]

What about MoO? Wasn't the lack of it enough to be outside IR35 or did i miss something?

MoO is about offering work outside the current scope agreed. That doesn't really kick in unless they are asked to do some stuff that's not agreed or after the engagement so not that much of an issue in an ongoing gig. It does however beg the question about a BAU 3rd line persons schedule of work. I can't imagine it looks like anything more than a job specification and not a detailed assignment which is part of the reason people make blanket assumptions about this type of role.

[northernladuk]

Couple of other things that just don't ring right with me in the article are...

‘None of us are contemplating staying’

I find this hard to believe looking at my ex client and the number of people on here that look like they are going to stay. Same is always said with client rate cuts and next to no one leaves.

Rather than stay and accept the trust’s decision, or avoid it but pay more tax by becoming PAYE umbrella staff, the 30 are set to move as one team to an end-user outside of the rules.

I don't like this. It raises so many questions. To where? A supply just offering the same people back to do the same roles? And they are 100% sure they are outside the rules? And 30 contractors, all agreed. That I'd like to see. Somethings not right there.

However, “none of us are contemplating staying” one PSC on the project said, even referring to the project’s senior team leaders, all of whom are understood to operate via their own PSC.

I bet the atmosphere on site is bloody awful right now lol with all this coming out in the open.

Firstly, it curtailed the existing contracts some of its PSCs were on from a few months beyond the rules’ commencement date (April 6th), to just before -- March 31st.

Isn't that a good thing for the contractors?

[malvolio]

Nobody is doubting their ability; but the D&C element is there for sure - they're in a reactive role with work given to them. Supervision could be the key to their inside nature and as for working practices, I can imagine that getting interesting. Similarly you can imagine the justification from them - "we're third line, so we're specialists, so we're outside of SDC and therefore outside IR35". Nobody's going to question it because nobody wants to be inside IR35.

so the difference is work being given to them, is it? Hmmm...

Client to 3rd line support - the DBAs report a database won't open on the main server, no idea why, go get it back up.

Client to coder - we need an app to combine these datasets and present it graphically, using our usual coding standards.


Nope, can't see a difference myself.

[LondonManc]

I find this hard to believe looking at my ex client and the number of people on here that look like they are going to stay. Same is always said with client rate cuts and next to no one leaves.

Difference this time is that you're not looking at dropping from £600 p/d to £540 p/d and still outside IR35; you're looking at being on £600 p/d, losing expenses, massive tax bill and huge potential of retro-grab.

I don't like this. It raises so many questions. To where? A supply just offering the same people back to do the same roles? And they are 100% sure they are outside the rules? And 30 contractors, all agreed. That I'd like to see. Somethings not right there.

Agreed; this sounds far more like wishful thinking on their part.

Isn't that a good thing for the contractors?

Depends when payment is made. Oops.

[LondonManc]

so the difference is work being given to them, is it? Hmmm...

Client to 3rd line support - the DBAs report a database won't open on the main server, no idea why, go get it back up.

Client to coder - we need an app to combine these datasets and present it graphically, using our usual coding standards.


Nope, can't see a difference myself.

Coders can go inside too. F*** 'em

[northernladuk]

Difference this time is that you're not looking at dropping from £600 p/d to £540 p/d and still outside IR35; you're looking at being on £600 p/d, losing expenses, massive tax bill and huge potential of retro-grab.

Well yes, poor example but I am certainly not seeing enough teams of 30 leaving and blanket resignations to for that title to hold true. The maybe be 'contemplating'. Reality?

[MPwannadecentincome]

I do wish people would stop with the lazy generalisations. You haven't considered the possibility that the client needs a fluid resource for a variable workload during a period of major change and has recruited contractors to fill the gaps? Or that those contractors are sufficiently skilled - let's face it, 3rd line support are rarely dummies in any establishment - to decide how best to fix whatever it is that's gone wrong?

You are in or out of IR35 based on the terms of your engagement and working practices. BaU does not mean you are automatically caught: arguably any coder and BA is far more likely to be caught since they will have direction and supervision in their day-to-day work.

Would the third line support be obligated to take on or turn down work? Would they be able to claim they are not under SDC when they have to be available at certain times of the day and taking calls or tickets as they come?