IR35 PS - So anyone had the discussion yet?

[notahappybunny]

This is a sensitive decision and will likely go to the absolute top management at the PSB. Once someone there has the balls decides to take the "risk", who is going to overrule it at a later stage unless a change in management happens. At present PSB faces no financial liability for making the wrong decision, unless something makes its way in the PSB<>Agency contract or the contractors are direct. So reversal of course makes no sense (i know that PSBs are not known for being racional).

I just can't get my head round the fact it is about 6 weeks away and yet nobody has a clue how it will pan out......PSB, Agencies or the HMRC ..........what a farce!

[psychocandy]

I just can't get my head round the fact it is about 6 weeks away and yet nobody has a clue how it will pan out......PSB, Agencies or the HMRC ..........what a farce!

1 week away (if you're on monthly payment terms).....

[AjayG]

My agency told me that they, and a lot of other agencies, do not have their payrolls setup to allow this yet.

Reed have sent me a notification telling me they are cutting my rate by 12.5% to cover the Employers NI and Apprenticeship Levy, after which they will deduct the Employees NI & Income Tax!

I questioned their right to deduct the Employers NI & Apprenticeship Levy as I pointed out I am not the Employer, absolute silence on that!

Leaving!

[sal]

I just can't get my head round the fact it is about 6 weeks away and yet nobody has a clue how it will pan out......PSB, Agencies or the HMRC ..........what a farce!

everyone knows how it's going to pan out - disaster on a massive scale for everyone involved

If you are talking about indecision in the PSBs, some had already made their decision - like TfL and the NHS trust in the other thread, who went "all in", or current ClientCo who said - most we deem to be definitely outside, some are definitely inside, some are considered borderline and still working with QDOS and the agencies to make a decision on them.

[RonBW]

everyone knows how it's going to pan out - disaster on a massive scale for everyone involved

If you are talking about indecision in the PSBs, some had already made their decision - like TfL and the NHS trust in the other thread, who went "all in", or current ClientCo who said - most we deem to be definitely outside, some are definitely inside, some are considered borderline and still working with QDOS and the agencies to make a decision on them.

Apparently Met Police have made their decision - brolly, PAYE or leave.

[breaktwister]

Apparently Met Police have made their decision - brolly, PAYE or leave.

I don't expect that any PSB will accept the risk of having a "inside IR35" PSC in their supply chain anywhere; if an individual is regarded as a "deemed employee" they have a good shot at suing for the full range of employee benefits.

This has the absurd effect of forcing a large number of genuinely self-employed individuals into the umbrella route which when you think about it logically is essentially "fake employment"; the umbrella company with a large number of "employees" all providing services in different industries to different clients is much more of a fiction than a contractor working through his own company.

[RonBW]

I don't expect that any PSB will accept the risk of having a "inside IR35" PSC in their supply chain anywhere; if an individual is regarded as a "deemed employee" they have a good shot at suing for the full range of employee benefits.

Unlikely to be successful in claiming that you are an employee - the legislation has made it clear that there is no link between employment and taxation.

However, you would possibly have a much better case of being considered a worker, which would give some rights but not full employment rights. It's an important distinction to make - for example, the Uber drivers were not found by the tribunal to be employees, the first tribunal found that they were workers. Personally, when the case gets out of tribunal and into the courts, I expect the judgement to be overturned - so in the meantime the situation hasn't changed.

This has the absurd effect of forcing a large number of genuinely self-employed individuals into the umbrella route which when you think about it logically is essentially "fake employment"; the umbrella company with a large number of "employees" all providing services in different industries to different clients is much more of a fiction than a contractor working through his own company.

No matter how many quotation marks you use, it's not fake employment though, is it?

You are employed by the umbrella company, you are paying a higher level of PAYE, you are paying NI, the umbrella is paying NI (albeit from your fees), someone is probably paying the apprentice levy. So as far as HMRC are concerned, it's a win - they are turning disguised employees into genuine employees and increasing the tax take.

[cojak]

Reed have sent me a notification telling me they are cutting my rate by 12.5% to cover the Employers NI and Apprenticeship Levy, after which they will deduct the Employees NI & Income Tax!

I questioned their right to deduct the Employers NI & Apprenticeship Levy as I pointed out I am not the Employer, absolute silence on that!

Leaving!

Oh wowser! Just when I thought it couldn't get worse! The apprentiship Levey?!? I'm copying this to a separate thread on it's own!

[jamesbrown]

Oh wowser! Just when I thought it couldn't get worse! The apprentiship Levey?!? I'm copying this to a separate thread on it's own!

Yes, that applies to umbrellas and agency payroll above the threshold, no exception. I think umbrellas are in a different position insofar as they cannot legally pass this on, directly, to their employees, but they can increase their fees.

[breaktwister]

No matter how many quotation marks you use, it's not fake employment though, is it?

You are employed by the umbrella company.....they are turning disguised employees into genuine employees and increasing the tax take.

Totally fake employment. There is no "master-servant" relationship between umbrella and employee. If your umbrella tells you to report to them at 9.00am or get a disciplinary warning would you do it?