Fence Sitters
With apologies to those who already appreciate that this is not going to go away, and recognising that you find yourselves in this position largely through no fault of your own, it is time to engage with the issues. So, whilst this will no doubt be taken as nothing more than an attempt to drum up work I'll say straight away that this is work I don't need. My aim is simply to see taxpayers faced with what is likely to be a long battle with HMRC suitably prepared, whoever you use.
My proposal is on the table because I already represent a small number of former Edge employees due to their involvement in other arrangements. To deal with them directly is fine for me, but expensive for them, so I offered to see if I could help create a group so that costs could be shared. I believe that I am well placed, and abundantly qualified to help.
I already represent over 3,000 contractors in other structures, the defence of which is being funded by those behind those arrangement (in most cases despite them being closed down several years ago) and I am doing so on a group basis. I am also involved in other groups in non-contractor arrangements progressing cases to litigation. It is a process that works very well for me and for those I represent.
Unfortunately such an option does not seem possible for Edge which has scuttled off and left its former employees to their own devices. No doubt to the great delight of HMRC. But the group approach, however collated, is definitely the way to go. Whoever you appoint and however it is funded.
So each former Edge employee needs to decide what to do next. Keep your head down or plan ahead?
The first point that I'd make, with apologies for my bluntness, is that there is a huge amount of naivety on this site about what faces those in this structure.
Whilst HMRC may have sat back until now they have spent much of the past 6 - 12 months getting their act together. It is optimistic to think that you can sit back and wait for others to fund the defence and that you will not hear a peep in the meantime.
Questions I'd suggest you consider include: What happens if you are chosen for a detailed enquiry? If you are unrepresented do you not offer an easier target? What if HMRC decide to list your case at the Tribunal (as they can once you've appealed) knowing full well you can't fund the case or argue it yourself? What is my response to the technical arguments they present (see for example the very "helpful" Q & A HMRC are sending out with discovery assessments).
You should consider those questions in light of the following.
Enquiries into all contractor schemes are being co-ordinated. The vast majority, if not all, contractor arrangements are being enquired into. The Specialist Investigations teams dealing with them all speak regularly and share information.
The SI Inspector leading the Edge enquiry is leading or co-leading enquiries into at least two other similar arrangements. In them I have seen him issue detailed requests for information and even use Tax Information Exchange Agreements to obtain information from overseas territories.
HMRC has also spent the past few weeks compiling a detailed information request schedule to request "documents and particulars" from those in contractor arrangements. As soon as that is finalised I expect it to be sent out widely. What will you do if you get one and have 30 days to provide a wealth of documents? The information requests I have seen ask for everything from marketing material, to email correspondence, bank statements, contracts, loan agreements, working patters, details of end users, agencies etc etc. Two pages listing information or documents they want.
Please do not think that you can simply say that you don't have them, or send them a couple of bits of paper to see them happy. You are required to provide those within your "power or possession". That means if you don't have them, but you can get them, you must. HMRC will for example expect email key word searches, bank statements, etc. Penalties can be levied for non-compliance. Dealing with such an information request is time consuming and burdensome. Better to try to avoid one altogether.
Let me also be clear, I have no interest in representing a disparate collection of individuals who do not engage with the issues before them. It is expensive. My proposal is not priced upon that basis. If 50, or a 100, or more, receive detailed information requests the cost of dealing with them will be far higher. Certainly on an individual basis. It is a task I'll happily leave to someone else.
My proposal is predicated upon a minimum number of people joining so that I can proactively manage the enquiry process. I do not want HMRC to issue detailed and comprehensive information requests to everyone because I don't want to spend weeks having to put them together. That is what will happen if the process is not managed with HMRC from the outset. Ideally any advisor will look to agree with them what is called a Representative Sample Arrangement (which broadly means they ask for documents etc from a small sample of the overall group). This is one of the reasons for the comparatively short timeframe in which I have asked members to decide whether they wish to join.
So, whoever you use, and however you go about it, my very strong recommendation is that you stick together as far as possible. I also suggest that each and every former Edge employee has a clear idea of what you will do, and who you will use, if and when HMRC remove the fence……
As for those hoping for free advice via this forum I have now made my last post.
Those that wish to receive my proposal can ask admin for DM rights. If you then provide me with your email address I will happily send you my proposal.
I wish you all the very best in you resolving the mess in which you find yourselves.
Saleos.
With apologies to those who already appreciate that this is not going to go away, and recognising that you find yourselves in this position largely through no fault of your own, it is time to engage with the issues. So, whilst this will no doubt be taken as nothing more than an attempt to drum up work I'll say straight away that this is work I don't need. My aim is simply to see taxpayers faced with what is likely to be a long battle with HMRC suitably prepared, whoever you use.
My proposal is on the table because I already represent a small number of former Edge employees due to their involvement in other arrangements. To deal with them directly is fine for me, but expensive for them, so I offered to see if I could help create a group so that costs could be shared. I believe that I am well placed, and abundantly qualified to help.
I already represent over 3,000 contractors in other structures, the defence of which is being funded by those behind those arrangement (in most cases despite them being closed down several years ago) and I am doing so on a group basis. I am also involved in other groups in non-contractor arrangements progressing cases to litigation. It is a process that works very well for me and for those I represent.
Unfortunately such an option does not seem possible for Edge which has scuttled off and left its former employees to their own devices. No doubt to the great delight of HMRC. But the group approach, however collated, is definitely the way to go. Whoever you appoint and however it is funded.
So each former Edge employee needs to decide what to do next. Keep your head down or plan ahead?
The first point that I'd make, with apologies for my bluntness, is that there is a huge amount of naivety on this site about what faces those in this structure.
Whilst HMRC may have sat back until now they have spent much of the past 6 - 12 months getting their act together. It is optimistic to think that you can sit back and wait for others to fund the defence and that you will not hear a peep in the meantime.
Questions I'd suggest you consider include: What happens if you are chosen for a detailed enquiry? If you are unrepresented do you not offer an easier target? What if HMRC decide to list your case at the Tribunal (as they can once you've appealed) knowing full well you can't fund the case or argue it yourself? What is my response to the technical arguments they present (see for example the very "helpful" Q & A HMRC are sending out with discovery assessments).
You should consider those questions in light of the following.
Enquiries into all contractor schemes are being co-ordinated. The vast majority, if not all, contractor arrangements are being enquired into. The Specialist Investigations teams dealing with them all speak regularly and share information.
The SI Inspector leading the Edge enquiry is leading or co-leading enquiries into at least two other similar arrangements. In them I have seen him issue detailed requests for information and even use Tax Information Exchange Agreements to obtain information from overseas territories.
HMRC has also spent the past few weeks compiling a detailed information request schedule to request "documents and particulars" from those in contractor arrangements. As soon as that is finalised I expect it to be sent out widely. What will you do if you get one and have 30 days to provide a wealth of documents? The information requests I have seen ask for everything from marketing material, to email correspondence, bank statements, contracts, loan agreements, working patters, details of end users, agencies etc etc. Two pages listing information or documents they want.
Please do not think that you can simply say that you don't have them, or send them a couple of bits of paper to see them happy. You are required to provide those within your "power or possession". That means if you don't have them, but you can get them, you must. HMRC will for example expect email key word searches, bank statements, etc. Penalties can be levied for non-compliance. Dealing with such an information request is time consuming and burdensome. Better to try to avoid one altogether.
Let me also be clear, I have no interest in representing a disparate collection of individuals who do not engage with the issues before them. It is expensive. My proposal is not priced upon that basis. If 50, or a 100, or more, receive detailed information requests the cost of dealing with them will be far higher. Certainly on an individual basis. It is a task I'll happily leave to someone else.
My proposal is predicated upon a minimum number of people joining so that I can proactively manage the enquiry process. I do not want HMRC to issue detailed and comprehensive information requests to everyone because I don't want to spend weeks having to put them together. That is what will happen if the process is not managed with HMRC from the outset. Ideally any advisor will look to agree with them what is called a Representative Sample Arrangement (which broadly means they ask for documents etc from a small sample of the overall group). This is one of the reasons for the comparatively short timeframe in which I have asked members to decide whether they wish to join.
So, whoever you use, and however you go about it, my very strong recommendation is that you stick together as far as possible. I also suggest that each and every former Edge employee has a clear idea of what you will do, and who you will use, if and when HMRC remove the fence……
As for those hoping for free advice via this forum I have now made my last post.
Those that wish to receive my proposal can ask admin for DM rights. If you then provide me with your email address I will happily send you my proposal.
I wish you all the very best in you resolving the mess in which you find yourselves.
Saleos.
Originally posted by fizzy
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