Edge EBT thread

[cerner]

There are many features that show how difficult a task you face UNLESS you get some support (NOT financial) from EDGE and the EDGE TRUST. E. G.

Totally agree with this statement. A lawyer will really have to perform magic and pull a rabbit out of the hat to win this case without some sort of support from Edge.They at least need to show their face to testify as a witness.

That was why I said in earlier post that lawyers cannot turn water into wine at the end of the day.

[cerner]

" more fool proof "

I have a long running and large enquiry from HMRC for a remuneration trust with HMRC... some similarities to an EBT. Until you have an application from HRMC to go to the FTT, it would seem odd to send anyone money to defend your scheme. HMRC won't launch their FTT unless they are very confident of a win.... I'd sit tight for now and for now and enjoy your Christmas. Good luck to all.

Yup, Exactly the same advise from Michelle Booth[ex-Edge staff member]

[cerner]

I used to advise [so NOT looking for clients] on EBT's and have followed the threads for some time. A few obvious pointers:
YES - you need a group BUT
A/ I am not sure that the money handed to Saleos will be used in the correct priority . (Plus unfortunately I do believe that there is a certain amount of unwarranted fear factor being used by Saleos to attract business. I fear that your £750 will not go far and the next request for funds will be a large one ).
B/ Cant comment on DANDY approach other than what has been said 3rd hand re using a "savvy tax barrister for assistance / an opinion". Frankly this is not a sensible way forward UNLESS you know the exact A to Z of how the scheme actually operated. (Virtually all EBT's worked on QC "paper" - including depreciating currency loans). PLUS the outcome of the Rangers or any other EBT case/appeal does not matter if the EDGE scheme was NOT properly implemented.
C/ SO does anyone know song and verse how EDGE and the Trust actually operated. E. G. If EDGE have disappeared - who is paying the annual fees of the Trust. Is the Trust still in existence (it is up to the taxpayer to produce this information and a good Trust/Trustee witness to give evidewnce in Court) - if it is NO longer around THEN you can virtually say goodbye to any chance of winning - HMRC will argue Loans written off which is a taxable event.
D/ If you received loans from EBT then you were also a beneficiary of the Trust. You have rights of access to certain information from the Trustee..
D/ Before pouring money down the drain you also have to look at some very obvious practical issues that arose from the November 2013 Philip Boyle EBT tribunal case. Although the Philip Boyle EBT case is different in many ways (i.e. it supposedly used depreciating currency loans) there are many features that show how difficult a task you face UNLESS you get some support (NOT financial) from EDGE and the EDGE TRUST. E. G.
1/ Philip Boyle was a member of the Consulting Overseas EBT scheme which was so badly implemented it could have been argued that it was fraudulent (on the part of the scheme operator/implementor). Consulting Overseas refused to supply any evidence of what happened in the Isle of Man or what transactions were undertaken by the Trust SO the Tribunal had to come to its own conclusions based on other evidence available . SO the Consulting Overseas fiasco will strengthen HMRC's view that most contractor EBT's were set up/implemented on the cheap and are vulnerable.
2/ NB Question - Did QC say it was ok for Edge to circulate a brochure/starter pack that stated from the outset what your overall return/take home pay was and other material/emails that does not need much interpretation/reading between lines - this point certainly went against the Consulting Overseas scheme. A NORLA [mod snip - no guessing here please] client very recently posted on this forum about re-reading his sales brochure - HMRC will already be aware of this !!
3/ Whoever is the representative Client (if I were HMRC I would go with at least 3 ) they have to be prepared to go into the "dock" under oath and say that they "expected to repay the loans in full" despite the sales brochure referring to the 86% "take home pay" payable as soon as the agency funds hit the bank.
4/ the tribunal Judge was NOT impressed with Philip Boyle and fell short of calling him a liar BUT in lawyer speak the Judge was as close as can be without using the word.

SO - UNLESS you know song and verse on how the EBT operated it will be difficult to defend. E.G. Rangers FC [Murray Group] success at the first tier tax tribunal was - to some extent - because the company that settled the Trust and the Trustee both gave evidence before the tribunal as to how scheme actually operated. NEITHER did it need to circulate SALES brochures on the internet/ in the post to all and sundry.

FINALLY good EBT schemes can be defended AND you need to get to bottom of whether EDGE was good insofar as its implementation AND what does the QC think of the SALES brochure - which was an act of !!!!!!!!!!! on the part of the scheme implementer.

Wow!! bigdug You really threw some heavy weight punches there. This whole statement also reflects my view totally.
When it comes to the crunch or squeaky bum time, we will need to hunt down Edge to show their faces somehow.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Has anyone checked out DueDil? There seem to be a number of Edge Consulting's, all bar one of which have been dissolved.

[cojak]

Wow!! bigdug You really threw some heavy weight punches there. This whole statement also reflects my view totally.
When it comes to the crunch or squeaky bum time, we will need to hunt down Edge to show their faces somehow.

I want you all to be aware that bigdug's posting is showing an Isle of Man ISP.

You can draw you own conclusions for whom he might be working and what angle he is taking.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

sitting tight/doing nothing

Yup, Exactly the same advise from Michelle Booth[ex-Edge staff member]

There is a case to be made for this.

HMRC aren't going to enter a lengthy correspondence with every one of the 20,000 ebt users. They are more likely to select a few from each scheme for an in-depth investigation.

With BN66, they picked 4 users in 2003 to put through the mill (detailed questions, requests for all manner of paperwork, bank statements etc.) Fortunately, the promoter was still around to hold their hand throughout this process.

You're not in that position, you're on your own. Signing up with an advisor now is therefore a kind of insurance for whatever HMRC might throw at you. However, like any other form of insurance, it only works if enough people sign up. £1000 wouldn't go far on your own. It is only by pooling all your resources that you will get decent/affordable representation.

[K12AN]

There is a case to be made for this.

HMRC aren't going to enter a lengthy correspondence with every one of the 20,000 ebt users. They are more likely to select a few from each scheme for an in-depth investigation.

With BN66, they picked 4 users in 2003 to put through the mill (detailed questions, requests for all manner of paperwork, bank statements etc.) Fortunately, the promoter was still around to hold their hand throughout this process.

You're not in that position, you're on your own. Signing up with an advisor now is therefore a kind of insurance for whatever HMRC might throw at you. However, like any other form of insurance, it only works if enough people sign up. £1000 wouldn't go far on your own. It is only by pooling all your resources that you will get decent/affordable representation.

But what happens if HMRC (deliberately, randomly or otherwise) chose a users who aren't members of the group? We would be 25 out of over 1000 Edge users? Its also likely that the test users aren't even part of this forum and have no idea about our group. In my mind, it would make sense for them to chose users who have the largest liabilities i.e. who have been using for multiple years - probably into the early 2000's.
If the test case for Edge were to lose, would our group still stand a chance if we were to appeal etc? Would there be any point after an Edge user were to lose?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

But what happens if HMRC (deliberately, randomly or otherwise) chose a users who aren't members of the group? We would be 25 out of over 1000 Edge users? Its also likely that the test users aren't even part of this forum and have no idea about our group. In my mind, it would make sense for them to chose users who have the largest liabilities i.e. who have been using for multiple years - probably into the early 2000's.
If the test case for Edge were to lose, would our group still stand a chance if we were to appeal etc? Would there be any point after an Edge user were to lose?

You can only look out for yourself in the first instance, make sure you're covered if HMRC come knocking.

The BN66 test cases looked to have been picked at random.

And forget 25. Ideally, you need to rally a few hundred. Once the Group (singular) is formed, I would be demanding that Edge inform all the users about its existence. That should give you the momentum.

None of this will work as well if you have multiple factions.

[cerner]

I want you all to be aware that bigdug's posting is showing an Isle of Man ISP.

You can draw you own conclusions for whom he might be working and what angle he is taking.

Thanks for that info but with no pun intended and appreciate your concern but even if bigdug's posting IP is from the moon. His point of view as he explained it makes perfect sense regardless of where he is posting from.

The only cloudy part is weather test case will cover all or will each be required to contest individually. If HMRC chooses to contest individually with almost 20,000 of us the Tribunal court will be busy and stretched till eternity even at rate of one case a week. So I don't think that is really feasible.

[bigdug]

Isle of man

I want you all to be aware that bigdug's posting is showing an Isle of Man ISP.

You can draw you own conclusions for whom he might be working and what angle he is taking.

Isle of Man is where I reside. I have advised large uk companies re EBT's. I have advised IOM companies on the "back end".
I don't work for anyone. I have no angle to take.
Just trying to reveal some NB pointers that may be being held back by those wishing to collect monies.