Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[Guy Incognito]

Another edge case is the following. For the period under investigation, the MSC may pay out less than 50% of the fees to the worker(s). However, the goal, presumably, is that the remaining amounts are paid out eventually. At that point, the PSC may become an MSC if all other conditions are met because there is no particular timeframe in the legislation over which the qualifying conditions must be met. Thus, any payment made later on, including a payment made on winding up, would potentially trigger the legislation if 61B(1)(b) was the only condition not met previously.

They will have to literally prize the money from my dead fingers if they think I am paying a penalty.

[anthonymccabe90]

Hi all, like many people I’ve been trying to keep up with this thread but am not doing a great job and really don’t understand a lot of the terminology or really what is happening / next steps.

I was with CK years ago, stopped operating through a LTD and had ‘thought’ the company was closed down, but was apparently kept open pending this investigation. For the 3 years HMRC are investigating I have sent off letters of appeal but I have not done or heard much else.

Is it possible that anyone with a good knowledge of all this could perhaps explain what the current status is, what happens next, when can we expect these next steps, does anyone have any real idea of which way this is going to go, but also is there anything else we can or should be doing to defend ourselves.

Like everyone here it seems, I genuinely believe I’ve done nothing wrong and the estimated amounts I’d be liable to pay are astronomical. It would basically ruin my life and mean I’m broke after years of hard work. So, I really am at a loss for what to do and I feel like we have to just sit and wait while other people make these decisions for us. I am also stunned to read we will be being charged interest even though we appealed, is this true?

The other thing is that CK have been asking for 10% of the potential tax liability for an MSC fighting fund. This just seems totally crazy to me given they’re the ones who’ve put us in this position and we’re now being asked for money which could potentially go to nothing and then you’d STILL have to pay the tax. On the other hand, if they don’t meet their target will they just completely back out of defending their clients altogether and then we are left with no defence?

Sorry for the big post, this is a fraction of the questions I have to be honest and I can’t find answers anywhere, whereas lots of people here seem really clued up on it all.

[Hareforthebear]

They will have to literally prize the money from my dead fingers

Which they would, of course. And happily.

[anthonymccabe90]

This is certainly a new one on me. So, if I am reading this correctly you thought that your Company had been dissolved but it actually had not? When did HMRC block its closure ... early on in the closure process or late on? May I ask how you were getting the remaining funds out of the Company ... MVL or simple final dividend etc...did that happen? Are you paying Boox to keep it dormant?

Hi - sorry for the late response. I do not know when they blocked the liquidation because I only found out some years later when I received the determination notice. I received the final dividend and was then informed the company was closed, it looked like it on compoanies house too but it wasn't. I was with CK but I havn't been paying anyone to keep the company dormant, it's just been sitting there...

[GregRickshaw]

Which they would, of course. And happily.

Which they can't.

However prizing it from your partner (associated or not) or your kids (associated or not) they will be able to do long after you are dead.

[GregRickshaw]

Hi all, like many people I’ve been trying to keep up with this thread but am not doing a great job and really don’t understand a lot of the terminology or really what is happening / next steps.

I was with CK years ago, stopped operating through a LTD and had ‘thought’ the company was closed down, but was apparently kept open pending this investigation. For the 3 years HMRC are investigating I have sent off letters of appeal but I have not done or heard much else.

Is it possible that anyone with a good knowledge of all this could perhaps explain what the current status is, what happens next, when can we expect these next steps, does anyone have any real idea of which way this is going to go, but also is there anything else we can or should be doing to defend ourselves.

Like everyone here it seems, I genuinely believe I’ve done nothing wrong and the estimated amounts I’d be liable to pay are astronomical. It would basically ruin my life and mean I’m broke after years of hard work. So, I really am at a loss for what to do and I feel like we have to just sit and wait while other people make these decisions for us. I am also stunned to read we will be being charged interest even though we appealed, is this true?

The other thing is that CK have been asking for 10% of the potential tax liability for an MSC fighting fund. This just seems totally crazy to me given they’re the ones who’ve put us in this position and we’re now being asked for money which could potentially go to nothing and then you’d STILL have to pay the tax. On the other hand, if they don’t meet their target will they just completely back out of defending their clients altogether and then we are left with no defence?

Sorry for the big post, this is a fraction of the questions I have to be honest and I can’t find answers anywhere, whereas lots of people here seem really clued up on it all.

The status is we are now awaiting the FTT, all attempts (it seems) at getting it all thrown out have proved futile. Some companies have been release because it was impossible even for HMRC to apply the legislation.

The considered opinion is a handful of cases will go to FTT either end of 2023 or early 2024 (most probably the latter), the whole thing will probably not be resolved until 2028 depends on backlogs and costs of course but expect this to go to UTT and (money permitting) SC.

The perceived wisdom is around 60/40 in our favour, but many things have to go our way.

Are you sure you have done the correct figures? Very very very rough rule of thumb is to take the Employers NIC they have asked for and multiply that by 3 (if your company is involved in all three years) then add around 15% interest.

HMRC should refund you your CT and your DT, they haven't said they will.

CK IMHO are doing a brilliant job of things, they are not asking for 10% they said up to 10%, their initial communication was sloppy and they have retracted this.
They have raised over £700,000 now and there is no reason to believe they will just back out but it's clear to me in their agenda they are never giving up.

Many of us thought we had done nothing wrong and most of us probably haven't, hence the arguments and the legal position.

The other school of thought is get the liability figure arrived at by a tax specialist and HMRC and then pay it, get a long TTP and it won't ruin your life. From someone who starred down the barrel there's always a way through this.

If you are with CK then their portal and communications have been superb for free.

If you are not with CK then you may want to think to join up with David Kirk or WTT or others, my opinions are known on these but it does give some people good comfort.

To defend yourself, gather every tiny bit of evidence you have which shows you ran your own business and CK were your accountants. Every bit of evidence. From business cards to own invoices, to own directors meetings etc., No matter how tiny gather it.

[nekro]

Why are so many people only recently looking for info about this case? Everyone affected thus far should have been made aware in March last year.
Have Boox/CK really left that many people in the dark?

[GregRickshaw]

Why are so many people only recently looking for info about this case? Everyone affected thus far should have been made aware in March last year.
Have Boox/CK really left that many people in the dark?

Not necessarily but Boox clients may have to confirm. It maybe those arriving here now are only involved in 18/19 and 19/20 years.

It's a three years investigation but not everyone is involved in all three years.

[GregRickshaw]

Who else hates Fridays... when we get the dreaded 'Update on The Portal' message from CK.

Never once in nearly a year has there been good news contained in the update.

[Guy Incognito]

Who else hates Fridays... when we get the dreaded 'Update on The Portal' message from CK.

Never once in nearly a year has there been good news contained in the update.

Has to better than what we (don't) get from Boox...