Success Stories?

[AnthonyB]

Are there any?

A tax advisor I spoke to suggested that employees could be entitled to some credit if they expected their employer to pay all their tax and they confirmed this. In my case I have at least three emails from two different people from the umbrella company telling me that they had paid all of the tax I was required to pay and this wasn't something I should be concerned about.

Has anyone had loans written off / credits from HMRC / any success at all? This seems to be a long fight.

[Fred Bloggs]

How are you planning to get this money back? The former "employer" is likely sitting snoozing under a palm tree in Belize, Panama, Seychelles, BVI or somewhere equally exotic. Pretty much untouchable from the UK. And that's without considering that these schemes were operated outside of UK jurisdiction during their corporate lifetime.

[cojak]

What FB said.

I very much doubt that HMRC will be impressed by such emails.

I expect the only credit you'll get is that they'll ask politely for the tax that they feel is theirs.

[eek]

Unless the emails are formal payslips that HMRC can trace back to a completed RTI submission then the emails are utterly worthless.

If fraud via intentional inaccurate payroll reporting or inaccurate payments are involved (even if the non payment was by the "umbrella" firm) than HMRC will ignore any proof of payment and just use Agency reporting to identify what is owed.

As I seem to need to continually point out to people, even if you are being paid via PAYE, YOU are legally responsible to pay the correct amount of tax owed.

And HMRC have enough details to know how much the agency paid you, so have a secondary means of calculating what you should have paid.

[AnthonyB]

In one of the most recent HMRC letters they made it clear they would look to pursue employers, quote "in general HMRC will look to the employer to pay the amount due as the employer has an obligation to operate PAYE correctly". I think it sets an unfair/interesting precedent if HMRC are expecting employees to audit the tax arrangements of their emplyers.

fred. I am not planning to get the money back, it's HMRC looking for money which is sat with the umbrella company.

[Fred Bloggs]

In one of the most recent HMRC letters they made it clear they would look to pursue employers, quote "in general HMRC will look to the employer to pay the amount due as the employer has an obligation to operate PAYE correctly". I think it sets an unfair/interesting precedent if HMRC are expecting employees to audit the tax arrangements of their emplyers.

fred. I am not planning to get the money back, it's HMRC looking for money which is sat with the umbrella company.

I already explained, the vast majority of schemes were and remain, beyond UK jurisdiction. There isn't a snowball's chance HMRC will attempt recovery overseas from the typical tax haven countries, even if the money trail could be followed, which is extremely unlikely.

As eek already pointed out, it's your responsibility to ensure you pay the correct tax on your income.

[eek]

In one of the most recent HMRC letters they made it clear they would look to pursue employers, quote "in general HMRC will look to the employer to pay the amount due as the employer has an obligation to operate PAYE correctly". I think it sets an unfair/interesting precedent if HMRC are expecting employees to audit the tax arrangements of their emplyers.

fred. I am not planning to get the money back, it's HMRC looking for money which is sat with the umbrella company.

That's already the law and has been for a long time.

HMRC will usually go after the employer first if PAYE has been operated incorrectly but there are exceptions to this - and anything that is a tax scheme or "umbrella" firm is very much an exception where HMRC will seek money from the taxpayer.

[AnthonyB]

That may be the actual case but its not what HMRC are saying in their letters. There's also many many instances where HMRC write off debts.
Again, it seems ridiculous that HMRC expect individuals to effectively audit companies they worked for. If I could go back I think I'd just offshore myself.

[Fred Bloggs]

That may be the actual case but its not what HMRC are saying in their letters. There's also many many instances where HMRC write off debts.
Again, it seems ridiculous that HMRC expect individuals to effectively audit companies they worked for. If I could go back I think I'd just offshore myself.

Nobody is saying anything about employees "auditing" employers, except you. It is a fact that in law you are responsible for paying the correct tax due on income. That's all. Nothing else in the thread so far matters. At all.

[eek]

That may be the actual case but its not what HMRC are saying in their letters. There's also many many instances where HMRC write off debts.
Again, it seems ridiculous that HMRC expect individuals to effectively audit companies they worked for. If I could go back I think I'd just offshore myself.

Let’s try this again.

if your employer is an actual company and goes bankrupt for commercial reasons, HMRC won’t chase an employee for owed money (HMRC have been clear multiple times when a pressed this point).

If your “employer” differs from above it’s open season - and to be clear most umbrella firms fall into the differs category.

As for auditing umbrella companies (note the lack of quotation marks) I don’t think that’s going to be difficult going forward…