Horizon - new trustee

[DaveB]

Here we go, Indirect advertising.

This forum is for sharing information on topic for free. Your last posts shares nothing on the topic. Waste of internet traffic.

Stop the attacks, Stop the CAPS, Stop hate. If you have nothing to add on topic please do not reply.

I am interested to hear from others who have been in touch with the new administrator and if they could share what they have discovered so far.

Bare in mind that HMRC do read these boards and have cited this site in court cases. Anything you discuss or disclose here is likely to end up wth them.

BG are a closed group for that reason (among others). Certainly seek mutual support and encouragement here but you would be well advised to seek paid professional, specialist assistance for tax matters and BG is probably the easiest and cheapest means to getting it.

Admin and the Mods would not allow these threads to continue or BG to put themselves forward here is they did not believe it was a legitimate option for many of those who were caught up in tax planning schemes and the HMRC crack down.

[regron]

In fairness, this forum used to offer a wealth off opinion and advice before BG was established and traffic moved there.

I agree and that, I suppose, is my point. As this fiasco has developed over the years, people have chosen to take professional (paid) advice, as there isn't a 'one strategy fits all' answer to all this. Do people now expect those who are paying for this advice to just simply share it with everyone else ? Especially when HMRC read these boards.

Anyway, I have had my say and I will leave the thread to continue on topic.

[me206et]

I fully understand the issues with HRMC snooping in and also free advice being mainly nothing but personal opinion. But having said that the advice we had when entering these schemes was paid for, usually quite a lot, was backed by QC "opinion". So is the paid for advice any better than what has already paid for, I would question that.

Going back to the original thread I was interested on opinions of the proposed solution put forward to this particular scheme provider. No details required, even just a yes good idea or no it is a bag of worms would at least give general feeling to the proposal.

My personal opinion is it sounds a bit to good to be true, and the old adage stands. If the HRMC are going to change historical laws and agreements then surely this just adds another 20 years to the threat of being attacked yet again.

[luxCon]

There is a difference between "Sharing Information" & "Giving Advice"

This forum like 10,000 others is about sharing information and collaboration on the subject of interest.

It remains highly unfortunate that this is deliberately suffocated by a handful of members. No one is asking for free advise, but share what you know and what you found out. If you have nothing to say on topic, its best to say nothing.

Just imagine on other discussions here like "Accounting / Legal", every question was directed to one or more accounting firms telling people off for wanting free advice.

Please share what you know about the new Trustee's proposal.

[webberg]

This is my final say.

Prior to my firm setting up and advising Big Group, I was active on the forum here and shared analysis and opinions on what was then HMRC enquiry "progress" and what HMRC thought about the structures used.

Post BG set up, we continued to share information but of necessity it became reactive rather than proactive. That necessity was because a lot of the proactive material was paid for by BG members and is their property. Yes, that is a commercial incentive, but equally it's exactly the way in which all advisory firms in this space work.

You might ask for instance why some of the advisers in this area either seldom post anything here or ignore it completely? At least we do not do that.

I am more than happy to share our analysis of information that is in the public arena. Tax legislation is public and we often debate its failings and meanings. I have done that several times.

I cannot however share information I don't have. The firm behind the proposal in point here has chosen not to share the details in public and as such I (and perhaps no other adviser) do not have enough information to come up with a definitive opinion. Even if I did, it's an opinion. Trying to second guess HMRC, who seem to be interpreting their remit as "collect as much tax as possible", and who are backed with legislation so wide that even Supreme Court Judges struggle, is difficult. It requires time and careful thought and - without apology - that costs.

There has to be therefore a limit as to what can be said about a prospective arrangement which is not present when discussing a retrospective enquiry and the drivers behind it.

If that is your point, then I can see no solution other than get proper advice or think it through carefully and make a decision.

If your point is that all commercial proposals should be openly discussed for all to see, that will never happen.

[me206et]

This forum like 10,000 others is about sharing information and collaboration on the subject of interest.

It remains highly unfortunate that this is deliberately suffocated by a handful of members. No one is asking for free advise, but share what you know and what you found out. If you have nothing to say on topic, its best to say nothing.

Just imagine on other discussions here like "Accounting / Legal", every question was directed to one or more accounting firms telling people off for wanting free advice.

Please share what you know about the new Trustee's proposal.

If you are a member of the scheme then talk to either the new trustees or Go Outsourcing. They should be able to explain, and if everyone is to be believed then it should not be discussed on here. I for one would then, as I said before, like a straw poll on who thinks this is a good idea and who does not. No details required.

[FakeHorizon]

This forum like 10,000 others is about sharing information and collaboration on the subject of interest.

It remains highly unfortunate that this is deliberately suffocated by a handful of members. No one is asking for free advise, but share what you know and what you found out. If you have nothing to say on topic, its best to say nothing.

Just imagine on other discussions here like "Accounting / Legal", every question was directed to one or more accounting firms telling people off for wanting free advice.

Please share what you know about the new Trustee's proposal.

I am impacted by the Horizon 'new trustee' escapade, and have generally had a positive experience when dealing with the trust in Bulgaria, who will happily take your money, less so with the accountancy firm promoting the new 'solution'. My experience so far is they are not to be trusted, the accountancy firm, that is. It really saddens me that after the last few years, there are still those out there looking to take advantage.

[luxCon]

The gift that keeps on giving

As it stands I see the current communication by Go Resourcing as another means to fleece the scheme members while they can. The want 5% + 2.5% admin and interest charges to pay off the loan. However they fail to address ;

1- 2019 is not law yet and details are not clear (Can someone here please expand or correct me)

2 - They keep quoting Ranger v Murray , HMRC court case. Was the outcome of that case not that the tax and NI liability is due on the Employer, and not the Employee? I read on some accounting commentary page that potentially the Trustee may be liable and in some cases may be able to pass on to the members.

Dont the members have a potential case to deny liabilities based on this very case? (Again can someone please clarify)

3 - They do not make it clear how exactly the loan repayment is funded. Is it just transfer of the loan from Trustees to another entity via bridging loan, or is the member supposed to come up with the loan cash value and see the same cash amount paid in to another trust or say the partner's pension pot?

If its the first, then the member would become liable for a perpetual loan with a new entity that potentially could be called up on at any time in future

If the later then I dont have cash anywhere near that amount owed.

4 - The loan value on the Trustees book is actually a tiny amount due to the currency exchanges performed and the losses.

I know 2019 proposal looks to charges on the original GBP value, however the trustee only holds a fraction of that on their books and notional accounts. The trustee should offer the member to pay off the notional amount and write off the loan prior to 2019. Any reason why they can not do that? Should the trustee by law not offer the best option to its member?

Is there a way to force and demand the Trustee to accept the current book value of the loan and pay it off now?

The new scheme & the Trustees have connections to the same individuals who ran the old schemes. AT 7.5% of say average 100k loan value for say 3000 members this is a gift that keeps on giving.

[cojak]

Be aware that this forum is moderated.

Webberg began this thread. If others wish to talk about this Horizon scheme then start another thread - I am sure that webberg will not post on that thread.

Otherwise I expect a certain amount of courtesy on this forum.

To new posters - this forum has been running for 4 years and has evolved from many threads to just a few. I would advise that you have a look at the first page and skim through the history of HRMC Scheme Enquiries. Many of your suggestions have been considered, applied and moved on to the point of where we are now.

If you do not like the way this forum is run you are welcome to look for a new home.

[cojak]

And with this in mind I am closing this thread. I think it best for you to start new threads with your respective views.

I will not allow flaming in those threads either.