Hang on, they want to make it LONGER?

[NickFitz]

BBC News - Lee Rigby murder: Adebolajo and Adebowale face sentence

I hope the judge is lenient - it was only 1 stab wound after all.

Don't be silly. In that case, there was a clear intent to murder, which is completely different from accidentally killing somebody.

[vwdan]

Isn't this like throwing a rock off a bridge without looking - whether it hits someone is down to chance and you're equally to blame in either case?

I don't see how it's like this at all. The incident in question was already going the way of being a serious criminal offence whether the victim died or not. Sentencing in crimes like this is always a balance between the intended and unintended consequences. There's a legal precedent, but I can't recall the name of it.

Don't be silly. In that case, there was a clear intent to murder, which is completely different from accidentally killing somebody.

But there's also a HUGE difference between killing somebody through a genuine accident or negligence and killing someone while you were intending to harm them.

[VectraMan]

you watched the video ? it was completely unprovoked and intended to cause serious harm, animals like that should be locked away for a very long time.

Indeed. More of these should come down to intent IMO, and if you intend to do someone harm, even if not kill them, then that's still pretty serious. And different from say a drunk driver killing someone, which is a case of being reckless.

[vwdan]

I think R v Creamer was the case I was thinking of, but Wikipedia (as ever) has some nice info on this sort of crime and some more recent examples:

Manslaughter in English law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImbXXVbuzwI

Unprovoked and unacceptable violence with a clear intent to harm the victim.

[mudskipper]

From that pic, it looks like he's taking a hell of a swing at him.

Two blokes aggressively arguing, one punches the other who dies, you have some sympathy with the puncher. But in this case it looks like he did it for the hell of it. You hit someone who's not trying to defend themselves that hard, and serious injury is a likely outcome.

[OwlHoot]

Shouldn't you be tried on the basis of your actions, not random factors outside your control? If the guy fell differently and just had a black eye, the offender would have done exactly the same thing. ...

No - In English law you take your victim as you find them.

If you thump someone, and they drop down dead as a result for no apparent reason, that's just your hard luck and in times past you could and would have been hanged for it.

[mudskipper]

Video of it on the mirror website

Lewis Gill killed Andrew Young with single punch outside Bournemouth branch of Tesco - Mirror Online

Notice that the bloke on the bike does stop - wonder if he goes back to see if the guy's OK?

[d000hg]

But there's also a HUGE difference between killing somebody through a genuine accident or negligence and killing someone while you were intending to harm them.

Indeed, but there is also a huge difference between intending to kill someone, and punching them. It is unreasonable to expect that punching someone would kill them.

Anyway my question is - if the victim had not been killed or seriously injured, what should have happened? For instance:

animals like that should be locked away for a very long time.
If he hadn't of killed him though he would probably have got off with a caution.

Are you arguing that the same sentence would be appropriate if things turned out differently?

No - In English law you take your victim as you find them.

If you thump someone, and they drop down dead as a result for no apparent reason, that's just your hard luck and in times past you could and would have been hanged for it.

But I didn't ask what the law said, I asked what it should say, as a topic for discussion.

[mudskipper]

But I didn't ask what the law said, I asked what it should say, as a topic for discussion.

IMO, it's the crime that should be punished, not the consequences.

In this case, looking at that video, if you take a swing at someone who is standing on a kerb and who is not expecting it or defending themselves, there is a reasonable expectation that they will be seriously injured.

[vwdan]

Indeed, but there is also a huge difference between intending to kill someone, and punching them. It is unreasonable to expect that punching someone would kill them.

I think this is the fundamental point we (and you and the law) disagree with. It IS reasonable to assume that violently assaulting someone could lead to serious injury or death. I was always told clearly that even a single punch can kill someone - and it's demonstrably true. People going down hit the ground HARD and it's not difficult to see how they may never get back up again.