Dividends

[evilagent]

Yep, it can be a bit dodgy, but you were trying to imply that we're self-employed, so this could affect us. As far as HMRC are concerned we're very much not self-employed. We're either legitimately employed by our Ltds, or we're disguised employees of our clients.

agree.
apologies, I may have taken this off-topic into realms of IR35, etc.
will let thread get back on-track.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

You get offered a role because your CV has relevant skills and experience.
The client has interviewed YOU; your skills and social rapport tick the boxes. Good fit.

Try sending someone ELSE on site to fulfil a contract and let me know how it goes.
If clientco rejects a subbie, on the grounds it interviewed you, and expects you, it is dictating how
MyCo fulfils the contract.

True, IR35 is well-trodden ground, but I can't get passed the idea it's a dodge.
I accept the legalities etc are all done and dusted, but its still you thats expected on-site.

I agree that clients often choose MyCo because they are interested in ME, but it doesn't matter. An expectation of personal service from a specific employee of MyCo (i.e. Me) is not enough to put you inside IR35.

Unfettered substitution clauses can help but even without one, you can stay outside of IR35 as long as you pass the tests for MOO and direction and control. You only need to pass one, not all of them. Having a RoS obviously makes this much easier.

My contract has a good RoS clause, and I always contract with my clients directly (never use agents) but I've never had to use it and I'm under no illusion that my clients approached me because of my reputation. I'm still not within IR35 though.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

In theory, but not in practice, usually. And therein lies the rub.

It's up to you, the contractor, to make sure the "in practice" part aligns with the "in theory" part. Act like a business, don't let clients treat you like an employee and make it clear who's the boss.

If your clients don't like it, you need better clients.

[MyUserName]

It's up to you, the contractor, to make sure the "in practice" part aligns with the "in theory" part. Act like a business, don't let clients treat you like an employee and make it clear who's the boss.

If your clients don't like it, you need better clients.

How do you actually do that?

If you are contracted to work on a project and you never get asked to work on anything else, never have reason to bring in a sub and always have work how are you going to demonstrate you are different to the permie sitting next to you?

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

How do you actually do that?

If you are contracted to work on a project and you never get asked to work on anything else, never have reason to bring in a sub and always have work how are you going to demonstrate you are different to the permie sitting next to you?

Getting way OT now, but the IR35 link over there is your starting point. ---->

Getting contracted to work on a specific project and never asked to work on anything else is a good thing as far as IR35 is concerned by the way. It in itself is what separates you from the permit sitting next to you, who works on whatever his employer asks him to and who gets paid regardless.

The only other thing I'll say is that mindset is very important. Act and think like a business. Keep the permie mindset and think like an employee, then you're more likely to act like one too.

[sasguru]

It's up to you, the contractor, to make sure the "in practice" part aligns with the "in theory" part. Act like a business, don't let clients treat you like an employee and make it clear who's the boss.

If your clients don't like it, you need better clients.

Like someone else said, try sending someone else and see if it flies.
As it happens I work from home on fixed projects that I set the timelines for which means:
1) I could hire someone to do the work
2) If I finish a project early I can earn more money (one of the key IR35 tests)

You can bluster all you want about mindsets, but have a quick scan of the IR35 cases that have been lost (and won) to see the judges in these cases don't think like you do.

[d000hg]

It's up to you, the contractor, to make sure the "in practice" part aligns with the "in theory" part. Act like a business, don't let clients treat you like an employee and make it clear who's the boss.

If your clients don't like it, you need better clients.

Any relationship which starts with your submitting your personal CV is immediately off to a bad start then. We live in the real world where clients are after an individual to do some work. Whether you are running your services through a brolly or sole-trader status or a tin-pot company with delusions of grandeur is not something they give a tulip about.

[MyUserName]

Getting way OT now, but the IR35 link over there is your starting point. ---->.

Yep, I have browsed over them but they do not cover the points I raised. You normally only prove the lack of MOO, invoke a sub or resist D&C if the opportunity is given to you.

If you are left to your own devices on how to do the work but so are the permies then you are under the same D&C as they are. If you have always had relevant work then the lack of MOO would not be an issue and if you have never had cause to bring in a sub that can be ignored as a sham clause. What do you do to differentiate yourself?

Getting contracted to work on a specific project and never asked to work on anything else is a good thing as far as IR35 is concerned by the way. It in itself is what separates you from the permit sitting next to you, who works on whatever his employer asks him to and who gets paid regardless

But the permie sitting next to me only works on this project. The other projects require different skills which he does not have.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Like someone else said, try sending someone else and see if it flies.
As it happens I work from home on fixed projects that I set the timelines for which means:
1) I could hire someone to do the work
2) If I finish a project early I can earn more money (one of the key IR35 tests)

You can bluster all you want about mindsets, but have a quick scan of the IR35 cases that have been lost (and won) to see the judges in these cases don't think like you do.

Well fortunately for me, I don't do projects where I'm treated as a "resource". I'm not a bum on seat contractor. I'm engaged to work on specific projects and if I need to use an external resource to assist with the project I will do so. It's in my contract and it's the contract my clients agree to.

I too work from home 80% of the time and only attend client offices as necessary. My clients have little direction or control over me. I work my own hours and take the lead on the projects I'm engaged on because I'm hired as an expert in my field.

It's so easy to keep yourself outside of IR35 these days, it just depends on how you approach your business.

[MyUserName]

It's so easy to keep yourself outside of IR35 these days, it just depends on how you approach your business.

How would you keep yourself outside IR35 in the scenario I described above?

What would happen if you had not actually used a sub and perm employees also set their own hours, worked from home 80% of the time and took the lead on their projects. Wouldn't that make it look like you were inside IR35?