So another Tory Government

[Mich the Tester]

At the same time there should be a mechanism by which we can pull away without having to resort to leaving the EU.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere; isn't that precisely the kind of thing that CMD wants on the table? I think you'll find that the leaders of Europe's non-basketcase economies agree with you on that, and it's precisely the kind of concession that they may well be prepared to give to keep Britain on board, because they'd rather like something like that themselves.

[zoco]

I don't know how any of you lot can be so equivocal about the EU.

It is a corrupt, undemocratic behemoth from whose shackles we must free ourselves at the earliest opportunity.

Yes, the CBI and captains of big business warn against pulling out and understandably so; the EU actively furthers their globalist agenda in which power and wealth is concentrated in the hands of a tiny elite and the rest of us continue our move towards modern day serfdom.

Though we voted to join a free trade bloc, the ultimate goal was always a federal state but this minor fact has always been kept back from the public and that is a complete and utter disgrace.

[Mich the Tester]

...the ultimate goal was always a federal state ...

If it ever was the ultimate goal, it isn't now. I think if you chat with people on the continental side of the North Sea you'll find out that that isn't going to happen.

[DodgyAgent]

I don't know how any of you lot can be so equivocal about the EU.

It is a corrupt, undemocratic behemoth from whose shackles we must free ourselves at the earliest opportunity.

Yes, the CBI and captains of big business warn against pulling out and understandably so; the EU actively furthers their globalist agenda in which power and wealth is concentrated in the hands of a tiny elite and the rest of us continue our move towards modern day serfdom.

Though we voted to join a free trade bloc, the ultimate goal was always a federal state but this minor fact has always been kept back from the public and that is a complete and utter disgrace.

[MicrosoftBob]

Is DA complaining about outcomes created by free markets?

I think I need to go and lie down.

You think we have free markets ?

corporatism /= capitalism

[DodgyAgent]

You think we have free markets ?

corporatism /= capitalism

Exactly. Markets are controlled by the large corporates aided and abetted by EU legislation that piles huge costs onto new companies entering markets.

[MicrosoftBob]

Again I think you're wrong there; the mood in Berlin, the Hague, Copenhagen and Warsaw, or among the electorates that put centre and centre right parties in power in the 'sensible countries' of the north is absolutely NOT about handing more power to the EU; to the contrary in fact, with the notable exception of one German foreign minister who made a bit of a prat of himself at the last big conference saying that Britain had to be in fully or not at all, and was promptly put in his place by Frau Merkel who sees things in a rather more nuanced way. I think you'd like her actually; she's a Tory.

She does seem to represent German interests, and for that alone I respect her just wish our politicians would represent our interests

[doodab]

You think we have free markets ?

corporatism /= capitalism

No. I think idealised free markets that underpin popular thought on the matter don't and can't exist in most real word situations.

[Mich the Tester]

She does seem to represent German interests, and for that alone I respect her just wish our politicians would represent our interests

The trouble with doing that is that they wouldn't be able to go on blaming the EU for their own failings.

[Mich the Tester]

There are lots of good things the EU does and I would accept your point. The debate is should these policies (along with the bad ones) be legalised by a third party? There are common standards of training and skills (the UK is the only country that charters its engineers) that indeed make it easier for business to happen within the EU. If we sign up to these we can expect our companies to be able to compete effectively for contracts.

So actually, what YOU want is a free trade zone, and what I want is a free trade zone, and what lots of other tory bastards (as some would call us) like you and me all over northern Europe want is a free trade zone, but we can't yet agree on the mechanism to achieve that?