Muslim awareness classes for schools?

[shoes]

I think its because a lot of people don't believe the religion is key to the decision to go postal.

I cannot see how islam is not at the core of this when the murderers themselves state that it is, and when you actually look at what perfectly rational people interpret the core teachings of that religion to include.

You would be right for example if a group called the brown eyed men killed a bunch of folks and said they did it because they have brown eyes. I would think it irrational to be concerned about the prevalence of brown eyed people in our society, and I would reject the theory that having brown eyes somehow 'made them do it'.

This difference is that the focus is a religion, it is not some grouping like asians etc, it is a religion. It is optional, and it is a fact that in some quarters hatred and violence is encouraged and preached under the guise of that religion. And again perfectly valid interpretations of their 'teachings' incite violence and hatred.

I have yet to see a logical rebuttal of my earlier points, that this looks to any reasonable and rational person that these kinds of acts have everything to do with islam. Those that have responded on this thread and chosen not to respond to those perfectly rational and reasonable points, I would like to ask for a reasonable explanation. If you cannot come up with one and yet disagree in any case what do you think about your inability to think rationally about this?

[Mich the Tester]

I cannot see how islam is not at the core of this when the murderers themselves state that it is, and when you actually look at what perfectly rational people interpret the core teachings of that religion to include.

You would be right for example if a group called the brown eyed men killed a bunch of folks and said they did it because they have brown eyes. I would think it irrational to be concerned about the prevalence of brown eyed people in our society, and I would reject the theory that having brown eyes somehow 'made them do it'.

This difference is that the focus is a religion, it is not some grouping like asians etc, it is a religion. It is optional, and it is a fact that in some quarters hatred and violence is encouraged and preached under the guise of that religion. And again perfectly valid interpretations of their 'teachings' incite violence and hatred.

I have yet to see a logical rebuttal of my earlier points, that this looks to any reasonable and rational person that these kinds of acts have everything to do with islam. Those that have responded on this thread and chosen not to respond to those perfectly rational and reasonable points, I would like to ask for a reasonable explanation. If you cannot come up with one and yet disagree in any case what do you think about your inability to think rationally about this?

Yes, it has something to do with Islam, and I don't know what that is. In fact I know muslims who don't understand why some people become Islamic extremists or what to do about it, just as I struggle to understand extreme nationalists or extreme atheists (although I'm not a believer in a deity). So what to do about it? Do you really know what to do about this, given that none of use relly know how to tackle our own societies' issues with extremism, and the muslims I've spoken to don't know what to do about it?

[amcdonald]

Ideally we get to be able to colonise another planet, and either everyone religious or non religious moves

Anyone religious will get their own planet as a sandpit to carry on interfaith genocide to their hearts content without being impeded by the rest of us

Simples!

[vetran]

Well I'm sure you've noticed that there are a lot of different mosques; there are moderate mosques where the extremists probably don't go because it doesn't fulfill their need for their daily hate. They go to the more extreme mosques instead. OTOH, I could imagine that more moderate mosques would prefer to try and keep people on board if they seem to be turning extreme, as they can at least try to influence them positively. You really need to ask some muslims about this though; I've spoken with a few myself and this is really what they've told me.

I was talking about the Imams being extreme. We discount Breikevik as a lonesome nutter, the 7/11 boys were cultured in a Mosque.

If the vicar stood in the pulpit and declared war on the unbelievers in every church (of all variants of Christianity I have come across) I am pretty sure he would not be invited back and the congregation would complain to the Bishop.

Yes Islam doesn't have a hierarchy but they need to police their own.

[Mich the Tester]

I was talking about the Imams being extreme. We discount Breikevik as a lonesome nutter, the 7/11 boys were cultured in a Mosque.

If the vicar stood in the pulpit and declared war on the unbelievers in every church (of all variants of Christianity I have come across) I am pretty sure he would not be invited back and the congregation would complain to the Bishop.

Yes Islam doesn't have a hierarchy but they need to police their own.

No, we can't discount Breivik as a lonesome nutter because he is not alone; there are many people in Europe who support his idiotic views even though they're too weak and scared (thankfully) to emulate his disgusting actions. If we could discount him, and the BNP, and the NF and the PVV and the Golden Dawn and the German neo-nazis then we could discount the fundamentalists as lonesome nutters too.

[vetran]

No, we can't discount Breivik as a lonesome nutter because he is not alone; there are many people in Europe who support his idiotic views even though they're too weak and scared (thankfully) to emulate his disgusting actions. If we could discount him, and the BNP, and the NF and the PVV and the Golden Dawn and the German neo-nazis then we could discount the fundamentalists as lonesome nutters too.

I don't remember Breivik being radicalised by a religion directly or receiving overt support before the attacks? He was a Lonesome nutter however unpleasant, he is a criminal and no one in their right mind would deny that. There may be others, you say they are scared but I suspect they aren't nurtured, if they were then they would be far more scary.

BNP is on the edge of being made illegal and regarded by most normal people as very dangerous.

The fact there are other radical groups studied and monitored by law enforcement doesn't change the original question of how do we get people to trust Muslims if the perception is they harbour terrorists.

[shoes]

Do you really know what to do about this, given that none of use relly know how to tackle our own societies' issues with extremism, and the muslims I've spoken to don't know what to do about it?

We have to start by knowing what the problem is. Part of that is having a cold hard look at the facts and not letting any bias get in the way of that. And of course I mean bias from either extreme, from 'all muslims are evil' to 'islamic terrorism has nothing to do with islam'.

Just from looking at this thread you can see we have some way to go just in that simple aim. And this forum is populated by degree educated professional people! And yet still Ive not heard many respond in a rational way to my rational points.

We have a long way to go before we (collectively as a society) can even start to have a clear enough head to examine this rationally, which is terribly sad.

[amcdonald]

The fact there are other radical groups studied and monitored by law enforcement doesn't change the original question of how do we get people to trust Muslims if the perception is they harbour terrorists.

It was the introduction of the Toleration Act of 1689 when we stop burning Catholics over here, since then we have been pretty tolerant of religion until they start trying to impose their way of life on us

If you work from the premise this is a secular country, having any religion wanting to change your way of life is going to cause problems

We'll only get to trust them if they change their behaviour and that has to be a cultural change based around altering the foundations of their faith

[vetran]

the Muslims I know and like don't preach, they just obey their faith and are willing to share its detail if asked.

Much like the Christians & Sikhs I like.

[mudskipper]

Anything can be taken to extremes. When it is, it's rarely actually about the 'thing' itself, but more about power and control. An ideology, whether religious or not, is a vehicle for this to thrive.

Ignoring the international terrorism aspect for a moment, the Taliban in Afghanistan is little different to the worse extremes of communism (e.g. North Korea).