Ethical / legal / theological question

[vetran]

By their definition God can do no wrong, so it follows that if he acts upon your prayer it must be the morally right thing to do.

This begs a question, one that has caused Christians in the US and UK to try and get maths, especially set theory and theoretical computer science banned from schools.

If God will always do the right thing, does it not follow that he cannot have free will ?

Oh I like that, - stolen!

[shaunbhoy]

If you are going into an exam and you pray to your God to help you (assuming you were lucky enough to be born into an area and time where the correct God is the one you are indoctrinated) - are you guilty of cheating?

Other's have as much faith and evidence as you but were born in the wrong region/to the wrong parents etc and are therefore worshipping a non existant god.

Belief is not a choice - wanting to believe something is not believe. Hence no one has 'chosen' not to believe in your God they are just have not been convinced of the difference between your God and the many that neither of you belief in.

If I were you then I'd hedge my bets by praying to all of them. If your logic in this thread is anything to go on then you need all the help you can get.

[NotAllThere]

If you are going into an exam and you pray to your God to help you (assuming you were lucky enough to be born into an area and time where the correct God is the one you are indoctrinated) - are you guilty of cheating?

Depends on the help, and the nature of the god. It would be cheating if this purported God showed you the answer. If the help was keeping calm so that you wouldn't panic and have a mental block, preventing you remembering what you have learned, then that wouldn't be cheating. If the God in question is good, then it's logical that he (or she) wouldn't help you cheat.

Belief is not a choice - wanting to believe something is not believe. Hence no one has 'chosen' not to believe in your God they are just have not been convinced of the difference between your God and the many that neither of you belief in.

Belief being a choice (or not) is an important part of the philosophy of religion - voluntarist theories of faith. If you want to know more, try:

Pascal's Pensées.
William James 'The Will to Believe'
William Clifford 'The Ethics of Belief'. (He's the guy who said "‘It is wrong, everywhere, always, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence")
J.L. Mackie 'The miracle of theism: arguments for and against the existence of God.'

If God will always do the right thing, does it not follow that he cannot have free will ?

Not if there's a distinction between have a moral capability and a potential capability. I.e. I can do something, but I freely choose not to.

As far as Gödel is concerned - I refer the honourable gentlemen to my sig. Professor Barrow is a mathematician at Cambridge university, who is also a Christian. I think he might have issues about your theories about algebra, group theory etc.

(btw, my mother, who is as agnostic on the basis that not only does she not know whether God exists, she maintains that no-one can know whether God exists, was an R.E. teacher for many years. It's a shame that you got one who wasn't open to discussion. Did you send your sprog to a catholic school?)

If I were you then I'd hedge my bets by praying to all of them. If your logic in this thread is anything to go on then you need all the help you can get.

That works nicely... except what if the true god is jealous, who behaves like this?
1.If you don't pray, you're on your own.
2.If you pray to the right God, you get help.
3.If you pray to the wrong God... you get actively hindered.

[shaunbhoy]

That works nicely... except what if the true god is jealous, who behaves like this?
1.If you don't pray, you're on your own.
2.If you pray to the right God, you get help.
3.If you pray to the wrong God... you get actively hindered.

The true god isn't jealous, and he is very forgiving.
In any event, even the wrong gods will take pity on MUN.

[BlasterBates]

Hang on does this mean you have a financial advantage?

I'm just wondering about whether this should be declared somewhere on your tax return.

[mudskipper]

Hang on does this mean you have a financial advantage?

I'm just wondering about whether this should be declared somewhere on your tax return.

Financial Pundit Explains How the Bible Helps Him Invest

[MyUserName]

What a load of crock. God's existence or lack thereof is not based on what deity you believe in.

No one said it was.

Neither is God's ability to hear your prayer even if you pray to the wrong god. Neither is God's ability to help you even if you pray to the wrong god or don't pray at all.

If you pray to the wrong God (as in one that is not real) you will probably find it very slow to answer your prayers

What if I pray for MUN not to fail all his exams, would that be cheating? Could I get his whole class expelled by praying for all of them to do well?

Interesting questions. I have no idea.

Ignore re-instated... amazed you suckers still fall for long debates with such an obvious troll.

You are very conversational for someone who had me on an ignore list. I guess it is one step further than just evading/failing to address points I raised.

If I were you then I'd hedge my bets by praying to all of them. If your logic in this thread is anything to go on then you need all the help you can get.

*Yawn*

Interesting question, or should be from the standpoint of a religious person, but marred and confused by a lot of extraneous atheist ravings you couldn't resist adding about the correct this and wrong that.

The ravings about correct this and wrong that were required to set the boundaries of the question. Otherwise people would have replied "no because everyone can pray to their God". Which is not what I was wondering, I was wondering about the case where your supernatural assistant actually helps you. Perhaps you could ignore the 'ravings' and address the part of the qestion you say is interesting?

[Old Greg]

If God will always do the right thing, does it not follow that he cannot have free will ?

The third / fourth century A.D. Neoplatonists (Emperor Julian the Apostate is the most famous) largely held that:

1. God is perfect
2. There can only be one perfection
3. God is therefore unchanging (not dynamic)
4. Thought, choice and awareness involve dynamic change
5. God is therefore not aware, nor does God act

They saw God as a source of energy that is never diminished, much like the sun (of course they did not know that the sun is diminished), and they believed that with correct theurgic (basically magical) rituals they could tap into this energy. The sun analogy was why they followed Apollo, and why Sol Invictus (Unconquered sun) gained a significant following and official status, with a holiday on 25 December.

[EternalOptimist]

this bloke robot goes up to this bird robot in a bar

Roses are rgb(255,0,0)
Violets are rgb(0,0,255)
Open yer docking flap
and I'll lube you

[vetran]

No one said it was.

Not read Small gods then?

Small Gods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia