Challenge for the UKIP

[VectraMan]

Maybe but we do have to pay for this:

The EU

It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater again isn't it? Nobody would deny the EU is a bit crap, in a lot of ways. Britain should be taking the lead in making the EU bureaucrats sort out the finances, amongst other things, which we can't do from the sidelines.

Apart from his repeated use of the wrong sort of its, BB is making a lot of sense. He gets my vote.

[Mich the Tester]

Maybe but we do have to pay for this:

The EU

But you don't, if you play it well. Last week the Dutch finance minister was desperately trying to explain to the public, without badmouthing other member states, why NL has to pay an extra half billion to the EU this year. The real reason is that when he vocally complained about rising EU budgets, the one country that should, and could have supported him, Britain, didn't. The UK conservatives left him dangling and the UKIP lot just didn't even join the debate. A fantastic opportunity to build an alliance against the costs, pissed away.

[DodgyAgent]

It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater again isn't it? Nobody would deny the EU is a bit crap, in a lot of ways. Britain should be taking the lead in making the EU bureaucrats sort out the finances, amongst other things, which we can't do from the sidelines.

Apart from his repeated use of the wrong sort of its, BB is making a lot of sense. He gets my vote.

You would have thought that by now Britain or someone else would have sorted out something as fundamental as the EU finance budget. The integrity of the EU is being supported by member states simply not daring to leave. the fundamental foundations and practices of the EU such as the CAP which need urgent reform will not change unless the whole rotten structure of the EU is completely abolished along with the people in power.

It is like getting rid of an entire company board or a rotten IT department. Everyone whines that people and processes are indispensible. They usually are when vested interest remain in control. The solution is often to disband everyone and start again. even if there is a bit of pain at first.

The EU is beyond any form of gradual or consensual reform. It will not change unless its powers are taken away from it. Britain leaving would be the most likely event to trigger any sort of reform.

[AtW]

Cameron himself probably encouraged the US to say that.

US is telling Britain publicly to be part of EU - that would help to swing the vote on referendum

[VectraMan]

The EU is beyond any form of gradual or consensual reform. It will not change unless its powers are taken away from it. Britain leaving would be the most likely event to trigger any sort of reform.

Do you really believe a post UK EU is going to burst into tears, admit that it's done everything wrong, and promise it really is going to change this time in the hope of getting the UK back? Don't think so.

More likely the other 26 members will carry on exactly the same, except now with a greater left wing bias.

[Mich the Tester]

Britain leaving would be the most likely event to trigger any sort of reform.

Wrong. Britain, Germany and Holland refusing to keep paying for it will trigger reform. Britain won't trigger reform on its own. Build the alliances with the people who count. For a start, Call Me Dave lost a lot of influence in Europe when he pulled the tories out of the EPP, wich included the German and Dutch conservatives who now want reform just as much, if not more than the UK; he allied the Tories to some extreme nationalist wingnuts and religious fundamentalists in the ECR and thereby lost a lot of influence. Stay in, talk with the German CDU/CSU, the Dutch government, the Danes and so on and the momentum for reform will be unstoppable.

[d000hg]

Do you think the French do this 'flexible' thing?

At the moment they do, to a certain degree, because the EU forces them to do so.

France is in the EU so how is comparing them to a non-EU country worthwhile?

[Mich the Tester]

France is in the EU so how is comparing them to a non-EU country worthwhile?

France is in the EU, and therefore can be kept on a short leash by the rest that help tone down its protectionist leanings.

[DodgyAgent]

Do you really believe a post UK EU is going to burst into tears, admit that it's done everything wrong, and promise it really is going to change this time in the hope of getting the UK back? Don't think so.

More likely the other 26 members will carry on exactly the same, except now with a greater left wing bias.

Quite

We are better off out of it.

[DodgyAgent]

Wrong. Britain, Germany and Holland refusing to keep paying for it will trigger reform. Britain won't trigger reform on its own. Build the alliances with the people who count. For a start, Call Me Dave lost a lot of influence in Europe when he pulled the tories out of the EPP, wich included the German and Dutch conservatives who now want reform just as much, if not more than the UK; he allied the Tories to some extreme nationalist wingnuts and religious fundamentalists in the ECR and thereby lost a lot of influence. Stay in, talk with the German CDU/CSU, the Dutch government, the Danes and so on and the momentum for reform will be unstoppable.

I see it like being a member of a golf club. Full of arcane practices and rules. I could get on the committee and push for change, or alternatively I could simply save myself the membership and pay green fees and not get involved.

A little like being a contractor