I am an atheist.

[northernladuk]

In many cases faith schools do indeed offer a better education than non faith ones in the same area and there there are numerous statistics to back this up as many parents know.

Why would this be? I mean, what interest would the church/mosque/temple have in running a school so they could attract and educate highly impressionable young people. Oh, wait a second......

The faith schools are heavily subsidised in order to attract people to them and indoctrinate the next generation into their beliefs. It's a straight forward commercial decision. Have a look around your local area, if there's a good faith school there then you will find lots of young married couples attending the religious services - what parent doesn't want to get their kids a good education.

I know couples who are openly atheist yet they still go to church and send their children to faith schools.

Indeed but there are many factors. The fact they are subsidised by the church isn't the main one. My other half works at a faith school and they get less money than non faith ones in the area. The fact that it is full of people that make the effort to move to the area, which is more expensive because of the school and are willing to put the effort in to get them in shows a level of parenting which is naturally going to help the child whatever school they go to so the faith schools tend to get the better families. Those that are not as dedicated just send them to the local. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. This is a pretty general argument though, there are faith schools that fail miserably as well due to the area, bit like the CoE one in Bradford that didn't have a single christian in one year... but that is a different story.

[lukemg]

In the future people will look back at believers the way we look at ancestor worhsipping cavemen.

LOL - Absolutely correct, in fact people who used to worship the Sun and nature have more credibility as far as I am concerned as at least that is something tangible. Huge vested interests, financial clout and vague historical relevance is the only thing keeping these limping along.
Just a shame that this continues to have a big impact on those rational enough to discard it all as guff/childhood indoctrination.

[formant]

The fact that it is full of people that make the effort to move to the area, which is more expensive because of the school and are willing to put the effort in to get them in shows a level of parenting which is naturally going to help the child whatever school they go to so the faith schools tend to get the better families. Those that are not as dedicated just send them to the local. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy.

That's one way of interpreting it. I on the other hand don't consider it good parenting to subject children of non-religious parents to religious indoctrination for the sake of having them go to the most prestigious school in the neighbourhood. That's bound to unnecessarily confuse any child growing up. Those parents who can afford to move to a particularly pricey area for the sake of a school's catchment area, can also afford to 'fill in the gaps' of the local school privately (private tutoring in key subject, music lessons, sports clubs, etc.) or they could simply spend some time with their kids to personally enhance their learning experience. Moving to send your kid to a 'good school' (probably going by little other than the Ofsted report) is quite a lazy approach, I find.

We went to court to ensure that the kids' mother doesn't send them to her local CoE school. Yeah, it's got a good Ofsted report, but she chose it purely because it's the most local school and she can't be arsed to drive for more than two minutes.
We visited a number of secular schools near us (we're in catchment for a total of three, all rated decently) and decided on the best one out of those. We "won" - judge agreed that kids shouldn't be indoctrinated against their parents religion (or lack of such in our case) for convenience's sake.

[mudskipper]

That's one way of interpreting it. I on the other hand don't consider it good parenting to subject children of non-religious parents to religious indoctrination for the sake of having them go to the most prestigious school in the neighbourhood. That's bound to unnecessarily confuse any child growing up. Those parents who can afford to move to a particularly pricey area for the sake of a school's catchment area, can also afford to 'fill in the gaps' of the local school privately (private tutoring in key subject, music lessons, sports clubs, etc.) or they could simply spend some time with their kids to personally enhance their learning experience. Moving to send your kid to a 'good school' (probably going by little other than the Ofsted report) is quite a lazy approach, I find.

We went to court to ensure that the kids' mother doesn't send them to her local CoE school. Yeah, it's got a good Ofsted report, but she chose it purely because it's the most local school and she can't be arsed to drive for more than two minutes.
We visited a number of secular schools near us (we're in catchment for a total of three, all rated decently) and decided on the best one out of those. We "won" - judge agreed that kids shouldn't be indoctrinated against their parents religion (or lack of such in our case) for convenience's sake.

I think it's going a bit far to say that faith schools indoctrinate the kids (although no doubt some do). My youngest went to a CofE primary - they had a religious assembly a couple of times a week, and did church visits at Easter, Founders day etc, but it certainly wasn't pushed all day every day. He now goes to a non faith grammar with a wide mix of cultures (approx 50% Asian) and if anything they have a lot more Christianity - a resident reverend, an on-site chapel where they have services once a week, school organised confirmation classes (optional obviously), a 'christian' club, and various trips to church for founders day, Christmas etc. Was really surprised how much religion there was compared to the comp that my daughter went to.

[formant]

I think it's going a bit far to say that faith schools indoctrinate the kids (although no doubt some do). My youngest went to a CofE primary - they had a religious assembly a couple of times a week, and did church visits at Easter, Founders day etc, but it certainly wasn't pushed all day every day. He now goes to a non faith grammar with a wide mix of cultures (approx 50% Asian) and if anything they have a lot more Christianity - a resident reverend, an on-site chapel where they have services once a week, school organised confirmation classes (optional obviously), a 'christian' club, and various trips to church for founders day, Christmas etc. Was really surprised how much religion there was compared to the comp that my daughter went to.

Well, no doubt people define indoctrination differently. I do think it's indoctrinating if kids are taught religious stories as facts and if you have later iron that out again as a parent. Children are meant to be able to believe that what they get taught at school is the truth, so when parents are then forced to undermine teachers' credibility, it adds a lot of unnecessary confusion and is likely to make kids challenge their teacher's authority (my older stepdaughter has by now repeatedly gotten into trouble over telling teachers they're "wrong"). Of course there are probably plenty of non-religious parents who don't bother even finding out what religious rubbish their kids get taught, in which case it may be less of an issue.

I do agree about religious presence in allegedly secular schools, we've had that issue at the girls' first school (the CoE school they were meant to go to was a junior school, so starting from year 3). That was one of the things we questioned people about when we were looking at alternative schools, and that very much factored into our decision which school to go for in the end.

That said, I don't intend to bash religious schools. I'm sure many of them offer an excellent standard of education - for children of religious families. Just not for those of strongly atheist parents.

[SupremeSpod]

Well, no doubt people define indoctrination differently. I do think it's indoctrinating if kids are taught religious stories as facts and if you have later iron that out again as a parent. Children are meant to be able to believe that what they get taught at school is the truth, so when parents are then forced to undermine teachers' credibility, it adds a lot of unnecessary confusion and is likely to make kids challenge their teacher's authority (my older stepdaughter has by now repeatedly gotten into trouble over telling teachers they're "wrong"). Of course there are probably plenty of non-religious parents who don't bother even finding out what religious rubbish their kids get taught, in which case it may be less of an issue.

I do agree about religious presence in allegedly secular schools, we've had that issue at the girls' first school (the CoE school they were meant to go to was a junior school, so starting from year 3). That was one of the things we questioned people about when we were looking at alternative schools, and that very much factored into our decision which school to go for in the end.

That said, I don't intend to bash religious schools. I'm sure many of them offer an excellent standard of education - for children of religious families. Just not for those of strongly atheist parents.

Why would "strongly athiest" parents send their kids to a "religious school" in the first place? If they do then they're obviously not "that" strongly athiest.

[NotAllThere]

In the future people will look back at believers the way we look at ancestor worhsipping cavemen.

Nah - in the future, atheists in hell will look up at the believers in heaven, wishing they hadn't been so prideful and stubborn. There's plenty of ancestor worshippers in the modern world, btw. Much of East Asia indulge in it.

I went to a school founded on theosophical principles. Bunch of new age hippy peaceniks.

[formant]

Why would "strongly athiest" parents send their kids to a "religious school" in the first place? If they do then they're obviously not "that" strongly athiest.

Yeah, I'd argue that, but in the example of my stepdaughters' biological mother (no less atheist than we are) it was all about the convenience of sending them to the most local (to her) school. Not terribly surprised that the judge didn't agree with that.

I think there are enough atheists who put convenience or the prestige of having their children attend the most prestigious (often religious) school above their lack of faith.

[northernladuk]

Well, no doubt people define indoctrination differently. I do think it's indoctrinating if kids are taught religious stories as facts and if you have later iron that out again as a parent. Children are meant to be able to believe that what they get taught at school is the truth, so when parents are then forced to undermine teachers' credibility, it adds a lot of unnecessary confusion and is likely to make kids challenge their teacher's authority (my older stepdaughter has by now repeatedly gotten into trouble over telling teachers they're "wrong"). Of course there are probably plenty of non-religious parents who don't bother even finding out what religious rubbish their kids get taught, in which case it may be less of an issue.

Does this include Santa Claus, the toothfairy, the boogy man in the cupbaord etc etc

[mudskipper]

Nah - in the future, atheists in hell will look up at the believers in heaven, wishing they hadn't been so prideful and stubborn. There's plenty of ancestor worshippers in the modern world, btw. Much of East Asia indulge in it.

I went to a school founded on theosophical principles. Bunch of new age hippy peaceniks.

And what will the heaven dwellers be thinking? Will they feel sad seeing their non-believing loved ones being poked with pitchforks? Feeling sad in heaven isn't possible is it?

Talking of modern cavemen, anyone remember this?



BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Arts | Cave art hoax hits British Museum