I am an atheist.

[doodab]

What would be more interesting to discuss is why some people cannot let go of the human artefact that is religion.
I can understand the comfort factor, but the complete and total lack of evidence of any divine/supernatural intervention is telling.

What puzzles me is that most atheists seem more interested in arguing about the non existence of god than creating a rational system of ethics or filling in the metaphysical gaps.

[Gibbon]

What puzzles me is that most atheists seem more interested in arguing about the non existence of god than creating a rational system of ethics or filling in the metaphysical gaps.

I agree, it's pointless and futile.

Philosophy and morally improving history should be taught more.

[d000hg]

Looks to me like he does promise exactly that. No contextual caveats apply.

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

You'd be better finding a commentary but if you google "matthew 7 7" the wikipedia entry covers it a bit. This is I think where those dodgy "name it and claim it" US preachers come from...

What would be more interesting to discuss is why some people cannot let go of the human artefact that is religion.
I can understand the comfort factor, but the complete and total lack of evidence of any divine/supernatural intervention is telling.

There isn't a complete and total lack of evidence, you have merely not seen any evidence you view as valid. Whether such evidence exists I couldn't say as that depends on the person viewing it.

Problem is they are indoctrinated from such a young age the option of free choice has gone. When they are told to follow god at the same time as use a knife and fork, use the toilet to do your business etc how will they ever be able to question it.

This is just more made up nonsense. Of course many people are 'indoctrinated' but many others convert as adults... Evangelism being a big part of the Christian faith and others. The whole notion of a revival is about people being converted. Someone mentioned the Alpha course for instance.

[northernladuk]

This is just more made up nonsense. Of course many people are 'indoctrinated' but many others convert as adults... Evangelism being a big part of the Christian faith and others. The whole notion of a revival is about people being converted. Someone mentioned the Alpha course for instance.

Just because some convert it doesn't mean it is nonsense. You sound as bad as SasGuru when you try answer an argument by an even worse one.The percentage of people who convert compared to plastic Catholics for example... extremely small. On the whole, they are indoctrinated at childhood. Evangelism is usually regarded as converting non-Christians to Christianity. This includes people from other religions and that basis of region existing, in whatever form has been seeded at the young age as already mentioned.

The idea of being disillusioned or whatever it is in one religion so you swap to another blows my mind as well when you mention that. Surely by swapping you are stating you don't believe in that any more so what makes the new one more believable. Don't get that at all...

[d000hg]

But I wouldn't say the bulk of those who describe themselves as Catholic are Christians in the first place, they don't even know the bible. It's a label for them. Same with the elder church going generation.

If you look at modern churches - or those where people actually live by what they claim to believe in - I'd say things are quite possibly reversed. Although of course if any religion is very successful in its conversions, all the new kids will be brought up by religious parents because everyone is now religious!

[northernladuk]

But I wouldn't say the bulk of those who describe themselves as Catholic are Christians in the first place, they don't even know the bible. It's a label for them. Same with the elder church going generation.

If you look at modern churches - or those where people actually live by what they claim to believe in - I'd say things are quite possibly reversed. Although of course if any religion is very successful in its conversions, all the new kids will be brought up by religious parents because everyone is now religious!

I would agree with that. That is where the rather complex issue of 'faith' comes in to it. They will state they have 'faith' which doesn't mean they adhere to or believe the letter of the bible and then you are on a hiding to no where discussing it with them.

[IR35FanClub]

IAs you proudly admit, you're speaking from ignorance. I'd stick to that, you're pretty good at it. You're a perfect example of the stereotypical brainwashed religious type who was indoctrinated with beliefs but never bothered to investigate the claims on which they're made.

Far from it, its the exact opposite. I spent most of my life a non believer. Something happened a couple of years ago that I now put down to coincidence, but it got me to truly look into religion, all of them, and then decide it was all made up. A few of my recent girlfriends have been of faith - catholic / evangelist. In fact one had a brother in law who was a preacher. I had a long discussion with him (well it was more him preaching) which basically got me to realise it wasn't for me. He started going on about creationism FFS - I had never met one before.

My main argument goes like this...

Why would an "all powerful" deity that can do anything, want us to believe in its existence, but not actuallly show itself. Moses, Jesus and Mohhamad all got to see or talk directly to him plus numerous others, so the ability is there. We are told that if we don't believe it exists we are bad and will sufer the consequences at our death. Remember this is an all powerful deity that doesn't need anything from anyone, and can do what it pleases. Why would it tease us in this way - and say "hey I do exist and you must believe or else"? Surely it's simpler to appear in the clouds/flash of light be a voice inside our head / whatever and tell us it exists.

On a side note here, what the preacher guy told me - was that we all stink of sin so much that god hates us, depsises us and that's why we talk to him through Jesus. Erm, yeah right. It gets mad. I had to sit next to some right stinkers, but never felt the need to get a colleague to talk to them instead.

I myself was deluded for a while thinking I could talk to god in prayer. But as an experiment I asked the voice some questions - like "are you actually me answering my own questions" and the answer was "yes". I still uses this ability, but now would call it meditiation not prayer. So this experiance has taught me that if these historical figures did exist, they might have had the same delusions they were talking to god. When it was their own imagination / ego. the best way I can describve the experience is : I'm on the left, and the other voice is on the right and I hold an imaginary conversation, a bit like you could do if you were writing a movie script. It's not madness - its only madness if you are not religious or not waware of what is happening and don't recognise the thoughts as your own.

Not only do we have to believe based on lack of evidence (that could be provided) if we don't accept this deity in our short 70 odd years, we get to spend eternity burning in the fire. A bit unfair me thinks - especially as it was the deity that apparently gave us free will and logical thought in the first place. Surely on our death we could have a chat at the gates of paradise and say - look here matey - its obvious you do exist now I can see you. I'm sorry you had to kill your own son, which was actually you, but I never got the visit that made me understand. Maybe you should have a chat with Gabriel and tell him to get a bewtter scheduling approach.

So in summary if a god does exists:
It's
Elusive on purpose
Vindictive
Petty
Plus numerous other thing which we are told we should not be, so it's also a hypocrite.

I also spent a great deal of time reading the bible and some, not all of the qur'an to work out what they had in common. And there's a lot - like describing basic morals. The qu'arn is actualy a good read if you get one of the modern translations - there's some practical advice on how to live your life. But some of it isn't relvant in modern society. It defintely says - it's up to god to punish those who are against him, not anyone down here on earth! Well unless they are attacking you.

Now, here's the interesting part, I agree with what a lot of the religions stand for, being nice to each other, supporting the community, being non judgemental, and forgiving, which is easier than you think if you take the attitude Tulipe happens and whats done is done, move on. But none of these requires religion (as argued by Dawkins in the God Delusion).

So I forgive you for being judgemental on thinking I'm ignorant and a stereotype. ;-)

Some balanced reading : (the latter 2 help understand your mental system and its predispostion for accepting religion).
The Bible (including the Torah/Old Testament)
The Qur'an (especially given that the media would have us believe all Mulims are psychotic suicide jihadist)
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins
God is Not Great - Christpher Hitchens
Psychology for Dummies. (er?)
Thinking Fast Thinking Slow. (Some Bloke)

[Wanderer]

I think Jesus just says "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son"
He does not stipulate that is must be in God's will. If it is already in God's will then what is the point of praying for it?

Agreed. The bible is quite clear that if you pray for something then it will happen. Except it doesn't work. So, either the bible is wrong and god doesn't answer prayers (ie, just does whatever his will is) or prayers don't work. Either way, praying to god to beg for some favour or another is a complete waste of time.

It's quite neatly explained here....

Oh dear, I'm sure they will be warming my place up in hell right now....

[mudskipper]

I myself was deluded for a while thinking I could talk to god in prayer. But as an experiment I asked the voice some questions - like "are you actually me answering my own questions" and the answer was "yes". I still uses this ability, but now would call it meditiation not prayer. So this experiance has taught me that if these historical figures did exist, they might have had the same delusions they were talking to god. When it was their own imagination / ego. the best way I can describve the experience is : I'm on the left, and the other voice is on the right and I hold an imaginary conversation, a bit like you could do if you were writing a movie script. It's not madness - its only madness if you are not religious or not waware of what is happening and don't recognise the thoughts as your own.

I think it's more basic than this - I think simply putting your problems into words helps you see things more clearly. Whether you speak to God, a close friend, or even a diary doesn't matter - it's the process of verbalising the issues that helps you come to terms or see solutions.

[d000hg]

Why would an "all powerful" deity that can do anything, want us to believe in its existence, but not actuallly show itself. Moses, Jesus and Mohhamad all got to see or talk directly to him plus numerous others, so the ability is there.

The bible says nobody can see God in full glory and not be destroyed by it. But it also says prayer IS speaking directly to God.

On a side note here, what the preacher guy told me - was that we all stink of sin so much that god hates us, depsises us and that's why we talk to him through Jesus. Erm, yeah right

I can see what the guy is coming from - but that's BS. God hates sin, not us. That's kind of the crux of it. And we don't talk to God through Jesus - Jesus is God.

I myself was deluded for a while thinking I could talk to god in prayer. But as an experiment I asked the voice some questions - like "are you actually me answering my own questions" and the answer was "yes".

Hearing voices (or not) doesn't prove anything. Some might say you could even hear a demon that way Very few people claim to be able to have a literal conversation like that anyway.

Some balanced reading : (the latter 2 help understand your mental system and its predispostion for accepting religion).
The Bible (including the Torah/Old Testament)
The Qur'an (especially given that the media would have us believe all Mulims are psychotic suicide jihadist)
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins
God is Not Great - Christpher Hitchens
Psychology for Dummies. (er?)
Thinking Fast Thinking Slow. (Some Bloke)

I can't stand Dawkins. He's such an insufferable arrogant git, and far more zealous than most religious people. Does his book make the same kind of cheap jabs?

Agreed. The bible is quite clear that if you pray for something then it will happen. Except it doesn't work. So, either the bible is wrong and god doesn't answer prayers (ie, just does whatever his will is) or prayers don't work. Either way, praying to god to beg for some favour or another is a complete waste of time.

Those who study the bible don't see it as being a fundamental flaw. Reading few verses is like reading one page of Harry Potter What if only some prayers are answered rather than all or none?