lets welcome more indian nationals into the country to work in tech business

[Lockhouse]

I'm just glad I'm at the end of my career and not the beginning. The whole thing stinks.

[cojak]

Rob, get out to foreign countries - understand how it works.

You often argue against government intervention, yet this is a prime example of government intervention.

I think he's come from there to here rather than the other way around.

[ZARDOZ]

Actually, no we don't agree that there's a skills shortage.

What there is is a shortage of experienced locals prepare to work for less than £150 per day.

I blame the minimum wage legislation.

Robinho

[northernladuk]

It's my kids I feel most sorry for IMO. Most of my anger on this type of topic is on behalf of them not me.

[formant]

It is not a simple case of value for money in the way you seem to think. Imported workers are cheaper on the books so it saves money in the short term and the senior management are very pleased with themselves but the benefits are lost in the long term when the product suffers death by a thousand cuts, where I used to work the bobs would literally solve the exact issue they were told about and give no regard for the future.

I think the 'bigger issue' is that there's no room for personal evaluation. Companies need things to add up on paper. Getting 3 programmers for the price of 1 is a good deal - on paper, cause even the best guy is unlikely to be as efficient as three bobs. There's no room for arguing that that same (best) guy may not be coding three times as fast, but probably makes fewer (time consuming) mistakes, because he actually understands the task/instructions the first time around. Nor is there room for pointing out that that (still best) guy adds other value to the business - has great, forward-thinking ideas, and/or has the better work ethic (getting the job done rather than working 9-5 come what may). That's the stuff that matters on the job, but it's worthless on paper. It doesn't make a good business case, because it's not what anyone can be bothered taking into account.

It's for the same reason that although you may just be the best person for the job - the agent won't put you forward because your CV isn't an ideal match for the job spec. It saves time to weed out what doesn't look great on paper, and nobody cares whether the company loses out on a candidate that may have been a lot better than those that do get shortlisted. There's no room for 'personal' in the corporate world.

So no, it's not really about 'value for money' (because this approach isn't at all cheapest), it's about what looks best on paper, what's the most 'sound' business case (to the corporate idiot anyway), and about what's simple.

Hiring bobs is the simple option. The cost saving looks good on someones flipchart, even if realistically it's not going to materialise in that way. That's the attraction of it though, because management on various tiers is pretty short-sighted. *shrug*

[Robinho]

Look at all you pathetic protectionists.

Upset because other people on the planet might be providing better value for money than yourself and you'll have to up your game.

The UK benefits from skilled workers and you should be all for it, but you're not on this occasion because it affects you.

[DodgyAgent]

Look at all you pathetic protectionists.

Upset because other people on the planet might be providing better value for money than yourself and you'll have to up your game.

The UK benefits from skilled workers and you should be all for it, but you're not on this occasion because it affects you.

You have utterly missed the point

[Robinho]

I don't think anyone's made a good point yet.

I've just summarised the general rhetoric.

I mean honestly are people really arguing that managers are incapable of considering long term decision?

Even if they weren't how do you propose we solved that, make the government step in and force them to make the right decisions? That's got nothing to do with immigrants anyway.

The fact is we live in a global economy and you are competing with everyone regardless of where they come from or where they ultimately work. You have no more or less right to a contract than anyone else.

[MyUserName]

I don't think anyone's made a good point yet.
.

I think the points I made were pretty good tbh, what do you think was wrong with them?

I mean honestly are people really arguing that managers are incapable of considering long term decision?

No, merely that they many managers either do not understand the long term implications of what is happening (through various combinations of not appreciating software engineering's complexity right the way to being misinfored with a touch of wishful thinking). Do not forget they they are being challenged to cut costs and this looks like a good cost cutting exercise on paper.

Even if they weren't how do you propose we solved that, make the government step in and force them to make the right decisions? That's got nothing to do with immigrants anyway.

They could ask that companies demonstrate that sufficient skills do not exist in the country before they are allowed to ship in cheap labour? I am sure that there are other things they could do if they put their mind to it.

The fact is we live in a global economy and you are competing with everyone regardless of where they come from or where they ultimately work. You have no more or less right to a contract than anyone else.

I believe that a person does have a right to take priority for a contract/job within their own country.

[DodgyAgent]

I don't think anyone's made a good point yet.

I've just summarised the general rhetoric.

I mean honestly are people really arguing that managers are incapable of considering long term decision?

Even if they weren't how do you propose we solved that, make the government step in and force them to make the right decisions? That's got nothing to do with immigrants anyway.

The fact is we live in a global economy and you are competing with everyone regardless of where they come from or where they ultimately work. You have no more or less right to a contract than anyone else.

To repeat my point.

The ICT system is being abused and it presents unfair competition. It is a corrupt abuse of something that is designed to help companies to establish and develop their businesses abroad. For example an American company may want to bring someone to the UK to train their UK workers in the processes of the main company. An Indian company may want to send a business development person to the Uk or even send some developers to meet clients in order that they can understand requirements for offshoring projects.

What is happening is that companies are using the ICT to bring low cost workers to the UK to compete with UK based roles under the guise of working on offshore projects.

This means that UK workers are being priced out of jobs by people brought here illegally who probably do not even pay tax in the UK. Government turn a blind eye to it because every large corporate is doing it.

It is one thing for Polish workers coming to the UK and undercutting British workers (we are part of the EU and legally signed up) but is an entirely different matter with ICT workers.