Jobless Scum

[KimberleyChris]

Hi Kim

As that made sense and is quite thoughtful it must be Kim.

Where is Chris tonight?

No, it's Chris. I just left Kim smoking in bed.

[Platypus]

Ok - an epsilon minus -

1. JSA is supposed to be for SEEKING work, not doing it. If you are sweeping streets, you aren't looking for a job.
2. We have a min wage - JSA is way less, so you are saying on one hand "no-one should be forced to work for less than x" and on the other "unless the government is forcing you".
3. Enforcement - the proportion of those on the dole who are lazy scum wouldn't turn up, so you'd need an army of enforcers, or at least cut off their benefits - a huge admin overhead and subject no doubt to the usual Civil Service "efficiency"

It is utterly, utterly unworkable as most people more than 3 years old can see, and why it isn't done.

Much though I am in favour of the jobless working for their benefits, Peoplesoft bloke's analysis is correct IMO. (1) Can be solved. (2) can be spun. But I think that (3) is what kills the idea stone dead.


I would be in favour of going back to the system whereby HB is paid direct to landlords. Perhaps JSA could be handed out in vouchers, for food, for utilities. But no cider and ciggies. Child Benefit could be in voucher form too. Critics say this system is demeaning, dehumanising. I don't buy that.

[DodgyAgent]

I think you're missing a word or two there MF.
Dodgy - I have given a few reasons it wouldn't work - and it certainly wouldn't. Your Victorian puritanical approach is akin to those handcranks they had in workhouses to keep the poor occupied

Your whole attitude is twisted. You seem to assume that the default position for someone is to not work. Whatever the work is it is far better for a person to be engaged in a job than it is not to be. Why not create modern workhouses? are you telling us that not working is better than working?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Your whole attitude is twisted. You seem to assume that the default position for someone is to not work. Whatever the work is it is far better for a person to be engaged in a job than it is not to be. Why not create modern workhouses? are you telling us that not working is better than working?

Ok now I know you're mucking about - no-one cam seriously be that thick.

[AtW]

1. JSA is supposed to be for SEEKING work, not doing it. If you are sweeping streets, you aren't looking for a job.

Sure, take time off for interviews - not a problem, but minimum of 20 hours per week doing any job local authority has should be compulsory.

2. We have a min wage - JSA is way less, so you are saying on one hand "no-one should be forced to work for less than x" and on the other "unless the government is forcing you".

Pay minimum wage, no problem with that.

3. Enforcement - the proportion of those on the dole who are lazy scum wouldn't turn up, so you'd need an army of enforcers, or at least cut off their benefits - a huge admin overhead and subject no doubt to the usual Civil Service "efficiency"

Not a problem - out of those unemployed find best candidates, physically strong to withstand any abuse and pay them triple rate to do admin job - basically somebody who does not turn up gets fired even from that job and no more money. Keep a few big empty prisons ready - that tax a lot of taxpayers would be happy to pay.

It is utterly, utterly unworkable as most people more than 3 years old can see, and why it isn't done.

It's done in many countries and this pushes people off the dole to get real jobs. Even if it fails utterly it's well worth trying - welfare state costs so much that a spare billion can be found to afford somebody of sasguru quality to supervise work.

[DodgyAgent]

Much though I am in favour of the jobless working for their benefits, Peoplesoft bloke's analysis is correct IMO. (1) Can be solved. (2) can be spun. But I think that (3) is what kills the idea stone dead.


I would be in favour of going back to the system whereby HB is paid direct to landlords. Perhaps JSA could be handed out in vouchers, for food, for utilities. But no cider and ciggies. Child Benefit could be in voucher form too. Critics say this system is demeaning, dehumanising. I don't buy that.

I would wager that shorn of benefits they would suddenly find the energy to work. As far as dehumanising is concerned nothing is more dehumanising than not working. A carrot and stick approach of saying that to receive benefits they have to work whilst at the same time providing training courses which would suddenly become more valuable.

There are too many people who think that they are displaying a social conscience by paying people not to work.

[KimberleyChris]

If we are to ever be an advanced successful country again, we need all the skilled engineers to be doing skilled engineering, all the builders to be building, and yes, all the IT experts to be busy with IT.

We also need the people who have the guts to go and unblock a sewer or pull mangled bodies out of pile-ups ... voluntarily.

Anything else is really a counsel of despair, a national race to the bottom, which will take the country down with it as aspirations fall.

[AtW]

all the IT experts to be busy with IT.

This will cause closure of CUK!

[DodgyAgent]

If we are to ever be an advanced successful country again, we need all the skilled engineers to be doing skilled engineering, all the builders to be building, and yes, all the IT experts to be busy with IT.

We also need the people who have the guts to go and unblock a sewer or pull mangled bodies out of pile-ups ... voluntarily.

Anything else is really a counsel of despair, a national race to the bottom, which will take the country down with it as aspirations fall.

What we really need is for people to have the confidence the social mobility and the education to aspire to take on the challenges that they wish to take on. Unfortunately the left wing are dedicated to undermining enterprise and ambition by their attitude and by the way they run their public sector establishments (education being the main one). Because the public services fail to provide a semblance of decent service we are caught in a struggle to earn money to pay our own way and keep ourselves away from the clutches of what the state hands out.

[KimberleyChris]

What we really need is for people to have the confidence the social mobility and the education to aspire to take on the challenges that they wish to take on. Unfortunately the left wing are dedicated to undermining enterprise and ambition by their attitude and by the way they run their public sector establishments (education being the main one). Because the public services fail to provide a semblance of decent service we are caught in a struggle to earn money to pay our own way and keep ourselves away from the clutches of what the state hands out.

Yes, but we need JOBS.

It is no good training an unemployed labourer to become an unemployed builder, or an unemployed handyman to become an unemployed electrician.

I know that you are going to counter with talk of individual initiative and enterprise etc. but we DO pay our elected Government a lot of good money to 'steer' the country for us.

They are driving HMS Britain, and if it hits the rocks it is not the fault of the cleaner, it is the fault of the Captain.