No doubt it's all our fault

[Chico]

I dont see the point of comparing one work of fiction against another, it is like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend (Bill Hicks RIP, I think) and that is not the point of my argument.
I dont care if its real or not what I care about is the dedication to the cause it generates.

Strange that - for someone claims not to care you put a lot of effort in not caring and why do you care about the dedication to the cause it generates - if Islam is a work of fiction?

[snaw]

I have asked, but one can never be sure of the teachers bias. A Muslim is not going to tell me he wishes me dead and an anti Muslim is going to tell me of course I am right. I can only rely on my reading and that is biased as i dont read Persian so am reliant on faithful translations.

For someone who claims they know a lot about it I would have figured you'd know it was written in arabic!

And not being funny but when you talk about the teachers bias ... pot ... kettle black ...

You can't spend a couple of days quoting the Koran and acting like an expert if you're 100% relying on your own sole interpretation of a holy book that experts who differ from you spend a lifetime studying, but you refute quite catagorically.

[xoggoth]

Quite true notso, however not too many bible belt yanks in the UK so is a bit academic as far as impact on UK society is concerned.

Certainly the US Christian right has a major effect on the world at large. Some apparently reputable sources seem to think the Middle East conflict is positively encouraged by them as being a fulfillment of prophecy leading up to the second coming.

[snaw]

So you didn't see the placards saying

"Europe you will pay, Bin Laden is on his way"
"murder citizens of Denmark, Spain or France"
"7/7 is on its way"

some misunderstanding

some hype coming 8 months after the attacks in London

Jaysus, it's like having your very own daily mail in a BB format. Yeah, those guys represented the majority of muslims in britain, I'm sure of it. Same way the BNP represents me when they turn up to protest whichever colour they hate this month (What is it btw?).

[Fungus]

How odd. Some people criticise some Muslims for being literal, and then attack the Koran using a literalist interpretation. I'm sure I could lift quotes from the Christian tomes that encourage murder, and other crimes.

Fundamentalist Christians believe the Bible is the word of God as dictated to man and accept it as literal truth. Look at Chico. A mad loony if ever there was one.

Many centuries ago when we were murdering anyone who did not profess a belief in Christianity (or more specifically, the right brand), the Ottoman Empire was a very tolerant and progressive place. In Palestine Christians and Jews were tolerated alongside Muslims, and they were even allowed authority over certain areas of life, interpreting some laws according to their traditions, rather than having to obey Islamic law. I have yet to see that level of tolerance in the West. Now the tables are turned. It's all about culture. Middle Eastern countries are brutal dictatorships, and the result of oppression is often extremism. It means that the moderates are not in control, and society is distorted.

[xoggoth]

I always love tales about the enlightened Ottoman empire. I suspect that many in the Balkans and parts of Austria and (what is now) Italy didn't share that opinion at the time. I bet when they were building that famous wall of Serbian skulls the Serbs were really appreciative.

This is the big flaw of Islam, it tolerates on its own terms and that tolerance often falls far short of what they expect from us. Forget the theory, check what freedoms non-Muslims actually have in some so-called moderate Islamic states.

[eternalnomad]

lilelvis2000 - why did you delete your post

lilelvis2000 - why did you delete your post ?

your post suggested we took a look at http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm

which i did and wanted to respond to..... i just dont understand why you seem to have deleted your post

[Fungus]

This is the big flaw of Islam, it tolerates on its own terms and that tolerance often falls far short of what they expect from us. Forget the theory, check what freedoms non-Muslims actually have in some so-called moderate Islamic states.

Bollox. As someone once said earlier in this thread.

If you look at most of these Islamic countries, you will see a state apparatus that tortures dissidents, and anyone who speaks out. You are confusing Islam and corrupt degenerate states largely created and supported by the West, in large part as a result of past collonialism i.e. the British Empire, French Empire, Ottoman Empire etc.

You also forget what Europe was like 100 years and more ago.

Britain invaded other countries, stealing their goods, and killing people, all in the name of Christianity. To have a vote you had to own large amounts of land. And be male, since women could not own property.

Germany (and the earlier Germanic States) was a dictatorship, with no vote for the masses, which was part of the reason it went to war in 1914. In the 30's Germany was a dictatorship that treated many groups abominably, murdering many of them, and claiming to be Christian. That was a good example of a supposedly modern civilised country being led by nutty loonies, and committing atrocities.

The Serbs who massacred Muslims were Christians.

And the Irish terrorists ostensibly killed in the name of a religion. (Though it has little to do with religion, and everything to do with tribalism.)

You could make a case for Christianity being a hateful warmongering religion. If you thought about it in simplistic terms.

FFS for the most part people are people, and are the same everywhere. They want a comfortable easy life for their family, including a stable job and a nice home. All this Daily Mail style "Muslims are inherently evil" tulipe gets on my nerves.

[xoggoth]

I quite agree that we should not necessarily confuse what corrupt states do with the tenets of Islam, or tribal practices in Islamic countries for that matter.

However, you did not read what I said, which was moderate Islamic states. Look at rules for Christians who marry Muslims in Malysia for example. Or the death sentence for homosexuality in Indonesia. If a practice is carried out in the name of Islam, whether the country is moderate or not, then it is perfectly fair and reasonable to call it Islamic. Can you build a church or publicly read a bible in Saudi Arabia? No. Yet the Saudi governmnent spends a good deal of money funding mosques here.

As for this tulipe about what Christian countries did over a hundred years ago, that is precisely the point behind the charge that Islam is backward. Christian societies have mostly stopped doing it.

PS I expect the Christian Serbs did kill a fair few, but let's get the history right as to who invaded who.

[The Master]

I have yet to see that level of tolerance in the West.

Are you off your head, Fungus? Last time I looked you didn't risk being executed in any western country for setting up a mosque or espousing religions other than Christianity.