The Fourth Reich

[DodgyAgent]

Well let's say you're an individual who's heavily in debt you don't have much freedom until you either pay off the debt or go through bankruptcy, which is a mercifully short (but nasty) process in the UK, but a long and painful process in other EU countries. I think the Greek and Spanish public are probably better off at the mercy of the German government than just the IMF; Italy might well recover quicker than both of them.

I find it very harsh for the public of Greece, Italy and Spain who've been shafted by successive governments and now see their independence undermined; maybe in future they'll hold their politicians to account before it gets this far.

Yes, a lot of power is moving to Germany, but comparisons with earlier 'reichs' are really a bit OTT and unnecessary; modern Germany is frankly nothing like any other German state that has gone before it, and probably the one country in Europe least likely to go around oppressing people.

Oh, and if I had to choose between Berluscroney and Merkel to rule over me, I'd choose Merkel.

Whilst I agree with what you say, I am horrified how complacent people are becoming on this lack of accountability. No one here has known a wartime or anything like the holocaust. We think that now Europe is a relatively stable place in the world that we can forget about democracy. Well we cannot. Human beings have not changed. Some of them armed with too much power will use it. The control of power along with stability is an ongoing never ending activity. To think that Germans, or any other individual or nation for that matter, would be unlikely to exploit their power is madness. Intentionally or unintentionally the Germans will look after themselves - particularly if that is where their accountabilities lie. Do you people learn nothing from history? Far better the Greeks go bust and pull out of the Euro and learn the disciplines of efficient government for themselves no matter how painful that may be. If the chips are down there is no knowing (well actually there is) what might happen in an environment that lacks democratic control

[xoggoth]

And yet all employers say that its the native British who can't or won't take the crappy jobs that those nationalities do

Some in that list perhaps, not all.

[sasguru]

Whilst I agree with what you say, I am horrified how complacent people are becoming on this lack of accountability. No one here has known a wartime or anything like the holocaust. We think that now Europe is a relatively stable place in the world that we can forget about democracy. Well we cannot. Human beings have not changed. Some of them armed with too much power will use it. The control of power along with stability is an ongoing never ending activity. To think that Germans, or any other individual or nation for that matter, would be unlikely to exploit their power is madness. Intentionally or unintentionally the Germans will look after themselves - particularly if that is where their accountabilities lie. Do you people learn nothing from history? Far better the Greeks go bust and pull out of the Euro and learn the disciplines of efficient government for themselves no matter how painful that may be. If the chips are down there is no knowing (well actually there is) what might happen in an environment that lacks democratic control

WHS.
There are too many poorly-educated, naive people on this forum.

[doodab]

Whilst I agree with what you say, I am horrified how complacent people are becoming on this lack of accountability. No one here has known a wartime or anything like the holocaust. We think that now Europe is a relatively stable place in the world that we can forget about democracy. Well we cannot. Human beings have not changed. Some of them armed with too much power will use it. The control of power along with stability is an ongoing never ending activity. To think that Germans, or any other individual or nation for that matter, would be unlikely to exploit their power is madness. Intentionally or unintentionally the Germans will look after themselves - particularly if that is where their accountabilities lie. Do you people learn nothing from history? Far better the Greeks go bust and pull out of the Euro and learn the disciplines of efficient government for themselves no matter how painful that may be. If the chips are down there is no knowing (well actually there is) what might happen in an environment that lacks democratic control

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

[bobspud]

Whilst I agree with what you say, I am horrified how complacent people are becoming on this lack of accountability. No one here has known a wartime or anything like the holocaust. We think that now Europe is a relatively stable place in the world that we can forget about democracy. Well we cannot. Human beings have not changed. Some of them armed with too much power will use it. The control of power along with stability is an ongoing never ending activity. To think that Germans, or any other individual or nation for that matter, would be unlikely to exploit their power is madness. Intentionally or unintentionally the Germans will look after themselves - particularly if that is where their accountabilities lie. Do you people learn nothing from history? Far better the Greeks go bust and pull out of the Euro and learn the disciplines of efficient government for themselves no matter how painful that may be. If the chips are down there is no knowing (well actually there is) what might happen in an environment that lacks democratic control

+1

[darrenb]

If the chips are down there is no knowing (well actually there is) what might happen in an environment that lacks democratic control

Do you mean like a recruiting agency, or like a bank, or... ?

[Doggy Styles]

Think the people of those countries will accept it? Once the bailouts and haircuts have happened and the new technocrat governments have gotten to grips with the problem nations the Euro will come out stronger than before. I think the crisis has been averted.

The strange thing is that people believe that.

However, bailouts will hurt those paying the bailouts, haircuts will hurt those taking the haircuts, and the austerity measures required will hurt each of the electorates and the money supply to pay for the bailouts.

There's no winners there, people will fight against it, and there's not a good chance of success either because the fundamental problems are still there.

This is not a situation that anyone can glibly say "I think the crisis has been averted."

[DodgyAgent]

Do you mean like a recruiting agency, or like a bank, or... ?

As you mention it my Gran is on the market

[scooterscot]

Well let's say you're an individual who's heavily in debt you don't have much freedom until you either pay off the debt or go through bankruptcy, which is a mercifully short (but nasty) process in the UK, but a long and painful process in other EU countries. I think the Greek and Spanish public are probably better off at the mercy of the German government than just the IMF; Italy might well recover quicker than both of them.

I find it very harsh for the public of Greece, Italy and Spain who've been shafted by successive governments and now see their independence undermined; maybe in future they'll hold their politicians to account before it gets this far...

WHS

[Old Greg]

I, for one, welcome our new masters, and may I be the first to state my loyalty and bring to their attention a list that I have prepared of potential ne-er-do-wells, who should be placed immediately in protective custody.