The Fourth Reich

[Sysman]

It is the only way the Euro can work and it will mean that the Germans will control Europe.
The Germans have brought it on themselves in order simply to keep their exports competitive.
They are now going to be controlling sovereign states such as Greece Italy and Spain.

The Germans are after cheap holiday homes again.

[russell]

It is the only way the Euro can work and it will mean that the Germans will control Europe.
The Germans have brought it on themselves in order simply to keep their exports competitive.
They are now going to be controlling sovereign states such as Greece Italy and Spain.

Think the people of those countries will accept it? Once the bailouts and haircuts have happened and the new technocrat governments have gotten to grips with the problem nations the Euro will come out stronger than before. I think the crisis has been averted.

Update: Maybe not, looks like Spain is in the firing line now.

[Mich the Tester]

Why not? The Germans will be in complete control of the entire Eurozone. There will be no democratic accountability towards the concentration of power and the interests of the Greeks, Italians Spaniards will be way down the bottom of the Germans agenda.

Well let's say you're an individual who's heavily in debt you don't have much freedom until you either pay off the debt or go through bankruptcy, which is a mercifully short (but nasty) process in the UK, but a long and painful process in other EU countries. I think the Greek and Spanish public are probably better off at the mercy of the German government than just the IMF; Italy might well recover quicker than both of them.

I find it very harsh for the public of Greece, Italy and Spain who've been shafted by successive governments and now see their independence undermined; maybe in future they'll hold their politicians to account before it gets this far.

Yes, a lot of power is moving to Germany, but comparisons with earlier 'reichs' are really a bit OTT and unnecessary; modern Germany is frankly nothing like any other German state that has gone before it, and probably the one country in Europe least likely to go around oppressing people.

Oh, and if I had to choose between Berluscroney and Merkel to rule over me, I'd choose Merkel.

[suityou01]

Well let's say you're an individual who's heavily in debt you don't have much freedom until you either pay off the debt or go through bankruptcy, which is a mercifully short (but nasty) process in the UK, but a long and painful process in other EU countries. I think the Greek and Spanish public are probably better off at the mercy of the German government than just the IMF; Italy might well recover quicker than both of them.

I find it very harsh for the public of Greece, Italy and Spain who've been shafted by successive governments and now see their independence undermined; maybe in future they'll hold their politicians to account before it gets this far.

Yes, a lot of power is moving to Germany, but comparisons with earlier 'reichs' are really a bit OTT and unnecessary; modern Germany is frankly nothing like any other German state that has gone before it, and probably the one country in Europe least likely to go around oppressing people.

Oh, and if I had to choose between Berluscroney and Merkel to rule over me, I'd choose Merkel.

Short termists view point.

<placeholder for Sasguru to call you a cretin>

HTH

[Mich the Tester]

<placeholder for Sasguru to call you a cretin>

He is free to do so should he wish.

I agree that this undermines democracy in Greece and Spain, less so in Italy, which has more immediate potential for recovery; I just don't think it's necessary to talk of a fourth reich; it's perhaps just the least crappy of a set of crappy options.

[xoggoth]

I love that comment in there that “people want ‘more Europe,’ not less.”

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/a...74_publ_en.pdf

The spring 2010 Eurobarometer (EB73) saw a decline in the average perception of the
benefits of EU membership across the EU as a whole. This trend has continued in this
survey. 50% of Europeans now consider that their country has benefited from its
membership of the EU, a decline of 3 points since the spring 2010 study.

57% of Europeans consider that “their voice does not count in the EU”, while 33% take
the opposite view and 10% expressed no opinion. The proportion of Europeans who
consider that their voice does not count has increased by 2 points since spring 2010
(EB73).

What an utter joke democracy is.

[xoggoth]

I like this:

The Definitive Answer on the Euro

A cross-section survey of 1000 people in the UK, made up of Afghans, Albanians, Pakistanis, Indians, Poles, Iraqis, Somalis, Bosnians, Turks, Moldovans, Latvians, Lithuanians, Bangladeshis, Ethiopians, Russians, Congolese, Zimbabweans, Portuguese and Nigerians were asked if they thought Britain should change its currency to the Euro.

99.9% said no, they were happy with the Giro

European Union Pollwatch - Opinion Polls. Leaving the EU is supported by a majority of British People

[sasguru]

A few of you are a little short of analysis and understanding. Here are a few truths:

1. "Austerity" in Italy, Greece et.al cannot work. In this context, as we can see in Greece, it means depression-era conditions.
Firstly, people will not stand for that for long.
Secondly with that level of contraction in the economy there is absolutely no chance of paying off your debts. Rather defeats the purpose, no?

2. The ECB is running economic policy for Germany and no-one else. Usually when a recession threatens, you relax money supply and credit.
Yet look at the broad money measures in Italy (M1-M3) which has contracted massively. This is exactly the mistake made by America in the 30s that turned recession into depression.
The glaring fact is the PIIGS cannot thrive under a Euro run for Germany. Hence the 4th reich comparison is not really far-fetched. This is war by economic means and ensures the hegemony of Germany by impoverishing the rest.

3. Does no one wonder that 2 European democratic leaders, however incompetent, have been overturned and replaced by "technocrats"?
Orwell would have had something to say about that I'm sure. The Greek people have been denied their referendum and the Italians their election.

[sasguru]

I like this:

The Definitive Answer on the Euro

"A cross-section survey of 1000 people in the UK, made up of Afghans, Albanians, Pakistanis, Indians, Poles, Iraqis, Somalis, Bosnians, Turks, Moldovans, Latvians, Lithuanians, Bangladeshis, Ethiopians, Russians, Congolese, Zimbabweans, Portuguese and Nigerians were asked if they thought Britain should change its currency to the Euro.
"

European Union Pollwatch - Opinion Polls. Leaving the EU is supported by a majority of British People

And yet all employers say that its the native British who can't or won't take the crappy jobs that those nationalities do

[EternalOptimist]

ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer, ein euro, ein SasGuru

you have to give it to the squareheads, they were always pretty good with the eins.

Unification, monetary, fiscal then political, the German way. ein Europe


who'd have thunk it