Hillsborough - 20 years on

[Cyberman]

I know a Forest supporter who was at the game on the day.

He walked past the Leppings Lane end on his way to the Forest end and says that gangs of liverpool supporters without tickets were "steaming" the gates, so the police had no option but to open the exit gate.

Of course there should have been better policing of the pens to move the fans round to the sides. Equally the design of the stadium and ticket distribution were poor, but as tragic as it was for Liverpool fans I don't think they were entirely blameless.

... and some on here say that supporters should bear none of the blame. I rest my case....

[Cyberman]

If 1000 people turned up for a train without a ticket, hoping to get one from the station (which is normal), and instead were found to be in a heavy crowd, waded into a jam packed train, which crushed them half to death because of the incompatence of the train company and police...would that be my their fault too?

Even the tiniest amount of blame placed on those fans is a total outrage.

Even if things were done by the police because of "crowds" - even that doesn't mean it was the fans fault. Anyone who has ever been involved in a heavy crowd should know how terrifying it is, and how little control you have over what you do/where you go when you're in it.

No blame was placed on supporters in the Taylor report, but as an outsider I cannot see how they have no culpability at all. Cynicism tells me that if any blame had been placed on the supporters HMG were worried about never winning Liverpool voters support ever again. You only have to look at their total overreaction with the Sun.

[minestrone]

You only have to look at their total overreaction with the Sun.

Overreaction? They said that the fans were pissing on the dead and stealing from the pockets of the injured.

You truly are a total prat.

[EternalOptimist]

... and some on here say that supporters should bear none of the blame. I rest my case....

Already explained this once, but I will give it a second shot.

Fans turning up to rush the gates was not uncommon, fans steaming the turnstiles was not uncommon, especially the scousers. Fans turning up with no ticket hoping to buy one off a tout - its very common, there are loads of touts.

If you are planning an event, you take all that into account. These things were not new, they should not have caught the authorities by suprise, so why did they ?
thats the question.

[Cyberman]

Overreaction? They said that the fans were pissing on the dead and stealing from the pockets of the injured.

You truly are a total prat.

I was at a Liverpool cup final around 1980 at Wembley and Liverpool fans were pissing on the terraces behind me and the backs of my jeans were getting sprayed, so I have first hand experience. I have been to hundreds of matches in my lifetime and that is the only time that has happened to me. I have only ever been to two Liverpool games where I have stood with their supporters. That's not a good record for Liverpool as far as I am concerned.

At Hillsborough, this is not too difficult to believe as it may well have been because they had nowhere to go because of the crush, and of course some of those laying on the terraces would have got urine on them from that which would have coursed down the terraces . As for the stealing, well, who knows, but can you honestly say that it would not happen. If the Sun had witnesses, fair enough.

[Cyberman]

Already explained this once, but I will give it a second shot.

Fans turning up to rush the gates was not uncommon, fans steaming the turnstiles was not uncommon, especially the scousers. Fans turning up with no ticket hoping to buy one off a tout - its very common, there are loads of touts.

If you are planning an event, you take all that into account. These things were not new, they should not have caught the authorities by suprise, so why did they ?
thats the question.

Police opened the gates to stop the crush outside as they feared deaths would occur. Somewhat ironic, but again you are giving reasons why supporters should bear some blame IMO.

[EternalOptimist]

Police opened the gates to stop the crush outside as they feared deaths would occur. Somewhat ironic, but again you are giving reasons why supporters should bear some blame IMO.

what makes me sad.
what makes me ashamed to know you(in a cyber sort of way)

even if everything you say is true
even if everything the sun said is true.

the people at the front who had the life squeezed out of them were not the scallies who pushed in at the back

[gingerjedi]

Police opened the gates to stop the crush outside as they feared deaths would occur. Somewhat ironic, but again you are giving reasons why supporters should bear some blame IMO.

I've been pissed on, knocked over and trampled at Glastonbury festival FFS yet I don't blame festival goers as the crowd was big and in high spirits, the only reason no-one was seriously hurt was down to fact that fields are big and people could naturally disperse, not something that was possible at Hillsborough.

Why do you insist on blaming Liverpool fans as if they are some sort of breed apart?

[BrilloPad]

There were errors and we are all human and humans make errors.

In this case the errors were systematic. A bit like the death od Ian Tomlinson but on a bigger scale.

[Cyberman]

I've been pissed on, knocked over and trampled at Glastonbury festival FFS yet I don't blame festival goers as the crowd was big and in high spirits, the only reason no-one was seriously hurt was down to fact that fields are big and people could naturally disperse, not something that was possible at Hillsborough.

Why do you insist on blaming Liverpool fans as if they are some sort of breed apart?

As I've said before, I blame a lot of factors, and the Taylor Report is 99% correct, but I just do not see how all Liverpool fans are totally blameless.