PA Consulting

[Peoplesoft bloke]

For god’s sake, what is it you luddites are scared of about ID cards?

.....
The reason why I'm so for it is from November 2008, all foreign nationals will have to apply for "biometric residence permits" or "biometric visas" and their details will be entered into the national identity database. .....

First step at putting British borders back in place.

I see Incognito hasn't been back to answer any of the very valid questions asked or points raised - maybe he's Wilmslow's brother.

[RichardCranium]

By making ID cards compulsory then police can confirm who you are, Hospitals can confirm you are not a 'health' tourist, Employment agencies can confirm you have right to work, Benefit agencies can ascertain you're entitled to benefits, etc.

Wrong way round. That is the marketing spiel. The reality is:

By making ID cards compulsory then police will demand your ID whenever they feel like it, the NHS can save money by denying services to anyone not carrying one, some people wanting to work can be prevented from doing so, Benefit agencies can make it even harder to claim benefits so we can have people starving to death on the streets again like we did a hundred years ago, etc.

None of that is worth the cost.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Wrong way round. That is the marketing spiel. The reality is:

By making ID cards compulsory then police will demand your ID whenever they feel like it, the NHS can save money by denying services to anyone not carrying one, some people wanting to work can be prevented from doing so, Benefit agencies can make it even harder to claim benefits so we can have people starving to death on the streets again like we did a hundred years ago, etc.

None of that is worth the cost.

Actually, it's based on false premise anyway - neither the government nor the pro-ID people can answer questions about how much we're going to have to spend to make it possible for the Health Service to verify who you are before treatment. Plainly there's no point relying on just the card as it will be so easy to forge, so they are going to need massive expenditure on systems (oh no) to read your fingerprints.

As for benefits - government figures for fraud based on lies about who you are are way lower than the costs of ID cards so there's no net gain. Even the government accepts that the vast majority of benefit fraud is people lying about their circumstances but not about who they are.

[Addanc]

WHS

Internet Slang Dictionary WHS = "wanna have sex"

[HairyArsedBloke]

Internet Slang Dictionary WHS = "wanna have sex"

Well, do ya

[RichardCranium]

Well, do ya

There's sex, then there's walking with a limp and a wince for a week.

[Incognito]

I see Incognito hasn't been back to answer any of the very valid questions asked or points raised - maybe he's Wilmslow's brother.

I was working and then enjoying my bank holiday. I'll dredge this one back up again tomorrow seeing how you've brought it up again.

[Incognito]

Okay, just for Peoplesoft Bloke.

Please provide an example of a country with an ID card scheme that has also directly resulted in their 'borders being put back in place'.

Did I say it will magically cure our porous borders? What I said was "First step at putting British borders back in place." You even highlighted it. What it would then involve is a government with the balls to implement some tough policies. Something along the lines of:

Wrong way round. That is the marketing spiel. The reality is:

By making ID cards compulsory then police will demand your ID whenever they feel like it, the NHS can save money by denying services to anyone not carrying one, some people wanting to work can be prevented from doing so, Benefit agencies can make it even harder to claim benefits so we can have people starving to death on the streets again like we did a hundred years ago, etc.

None of that is worth the cost.

Someone’s worse nightmare, yet my idea of policies that would work although our aims are slightly different. The NHS will save money by refusing treatment to those NOT entitled to it. Benefit agencies can make it harder for those NOT entitled to it to claim.

You haven't really thought about how all this will work in practice, just like the government.

No you're right, I haven't thought about this, I just make it all up on the spot.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060015_en_1

Have a read of it; the Credit Reference Agencies most probably hold more information about you.

Whilst Biometric ID cards can not be infallible, I believe it will require someone to physically steal the blank ID cards to forge any. At the moment, forged UK passports are mainly used for ID fraud at banks etc. Not many are used to enter the country as they are actually considered quite hard to fake and immigration officials know what they're looking for with these. With the NIR containing a biometric footprint, it doesn't matter if you can steal and fake a passport or ID card. You need to get your data onto that register. I'm not saying that won't happen, unfortunately we do have corrupt people in these places, but it will certainly reduce false applications and the majority of forgeries.

[DaveB]

Okay, just for Peoplesoft Bloke.



Did I say it will magically cure our porous borders? What I said was "First step at putting British borders back in place." You even highlighted it. What it would then involve is a government with the balls to implement some tough policies. Something along the lines of:



Someone’s worse nightmare, yet my idea of policies that would work although our aims are slightly different. The NHS will save money by refusing treatment to those NOT entitled to it. Benefit agencies can make it harder for those NOT entitled to it to claim.



No you're right, I haven't thought about this, I just make it all up on the spot.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060015_en_1

Have a read of it; the Credit Reference Agencies most probably hold more information about you.

Whilst Biometric ID cards can not be infallible, I believe it will require someone to physically steal the blank ID cards to forge any. At the moment, forged UK passports are mainly used for ID fraud at banks etc. Not many are used to enter the country as they are actually considered quite hard to fake and immigration officials know what they're looking for with these. With the NIR containing a biometric footprint, it doesn't matter if you can steal and fake a passport or ID card. You need to get your data onto that register. I'm not saying that won't happen, unfortunately we do have corrupt people in these places, but it will certainly reduce false applications and the majority of forgeries.

ID cards will not stop any of the things you talk about for the simple reason that they will be easy to obtain using false credentials. No-one needs to fake an ID card.

As I said before in this thread :

In order to get an ID card you need to prove who you are. Since all current forms of identity are fakeable without excessive effort or cost you simply fake the ID you need to get the ID card and bingo, you have a genuine, uncontestable, government approved ID that no-one can challenge.

Government so far have been remarkable reticent to actually answer questions about how one might go about getting an ID card and what documentation is required to do so. I suspect this is the reason.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

The NHS will save money by refusing treatment to those NOT entitled to it. Benefit agencies can make it harder for those NOT entitled to it to claim.

How much will be saved? How much will it cost to install the equipment needed to verify the id of every person before treatment? You don't have a clue, do you?

No you're right, I haven't thought about this, I just make it all up on the spot.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060015_en_1

Have a read of it; the Credit Reference Agencies most probably hold more information about you.

I have read it. Credit reference agencies do something useful and don't demand my fingerprints

Whilst Biometric ID cards can not be infallible, I believe it will require someone to physically steal the blank ID cards to forge any. At the moment, forged UK passports are mainly used for ID fraud at banks etc. Not many are used to enter the country as they are actually considered quite hard to fake and immigration officials know what they're looking for with these. With the NIR containing a biometric footprint, it doesn't matter if you can steal and fake a passport or ID card. You need to get your data onto that register. I'm not saying that won't happen, unfortunately we do have corrupt people in these places, but it will certainly reduce false applications and the majority of forgeries.

At what cost? This is a 'solution' looking for a problem and your regurgitating government propoganda doesn't make the case any better than they do.