So why socialism?

[Jabberwocky]

Ohh I dunno, fancy another banana ?

[BlasterBates]

Well JW I´m not arguing there isn´t ageism, and obviously you´re ageist yourself... but they´re not all ageist, and in an easy market, ageist PM´s will survive, but at the end of the day ageist PMs are weak. Any PM unable to employ someone less than 5 younger than themselves shows them to be weak. Eventually fallible PM´s such as that will be replaced with more successful ones. In the Investment Banking IT is much more competitive and PM´s just can´t afford to use inexperienced people produce crap, which is typical of ageist PM´s (yes I´ve seen it, PM´s take on young people who have no idea and totally unmotivated because they hate the PM).

[John Galt]

Another trite statement - our entire hierarchical society is geared towards success for the few and failure for the many. Try to remember that in 1998 the world's 225 richest people had a combined wealth of $1 trillion. That's equal to the combined annual income of the world's 2.5 billion poorest people.

Yes, 2.5 billion people whose success is determined entirely by themselves as measured by a capitalist society.

This was not a trite statement - it is perfectly true. What is stopping anyone becoming rich, if you take this as a measure of success? Prejudice will not stop someone succeeding - it may make things more difficult but if they are that determined to succeed they will. You speak of a hierarchy in our society that is geared towards a few - what does social position have to do with success or failure? there have been any number of people who have become very successful in life 'against all the odds'. Socialism discourages ambition and desire for material success - why?

[Jabberwocky]

This was not a trite statement - it is perfectly true. What is stopping anyone becoming rich, if you take this as a measure of success? Prejudice will not stop someone succeeding - it may make things more difficult but if they are that determined to succeed they will. You speak of a hierarchy in our society that is geared towards a few - what does social position have to do with success or failure? there have been any number of people who have become very successful in life 'against all the odds'. Socialism discourages ambition and desire for material success - why?

You seem to have a very simplistic view of the world. What is stopping anyone becoming rich ? The majority will never be "rich" by definition - wealth is relative - we are all wealthy than the peasants in Victorian Britain.
Capitalism promotes disparity in wealth because material wealth is the measure of success. Socialism encourages ambition and success through skills and knowledge. Some of the greatest achievements of mankind were accomplished in the public sector - a man on the moon, the welfare state, the Human genome, DNA. Look to the private sector for some of the worlds greatest scandals: worldcom, Leeson, Enron, Maxwell ...

[Dundeegeorge]

Socialism encourages ambition and success through skills and knowledge.

Ideally it does, in reality it causes the growth of the bureaucrat and a tendency towards mediocrity.
For a fictional viewpoint of the future of socialism, don't read 1984, watch Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

[John Galt]

Capitalism promotes disparity in wealth because material wealth is the measure of success. Socialism encourages ambition and success through skills and knowledge

So what you are saying is that the only difference between socialism and capitalism is that capitalism rewards you for success and socialism doesn't? Also please elaborate - how does socialism encourage amibition - by appealing to everyones better nature and saying it is for the good of the people? What then is their reward for hard work - a nice warm feeling inside?

[Jabberwocky]

You need to realise there is more to life than materialism. Socialism promotes ambition in the sense it rewards those who better themselves through giving, learning and collaborating. It rewards "hard work" if it results in these things. How hard does Bill Gates work for his $46 billion ? Does he work 46 billion times as hard as the starving African farmer ? How hard did the £76 million pound lottery winner work for her ticket ?

Most likely, the crap you receive daily in your job is caused by capitalism. But you can't see it, your single aim in life is to dish out the crap rather than receive it. Capitalism promotes envy and greed. It breaks up families, destroys relationships. It causes wars and famine. It is a failed system.

[stackpole]

How hard does Bill Gates work for his $46 billion ? Does he work 46 billion times as hard as the starving African farmer ? How hard did the £76 million pound lottery winner work for her ticket ?

Who cares? That's their fortune, your envy. Make your own millions.

[John Galt]

You need to realise there is more to life than materialism. Socialism promotes ambition in the sense it rewards those who better themselves through giving, learning and collaborating. It rewards "hard work" if it results in these things. How hard does Bill Gates work for his $46 billion ? Does he work 46 billion times as hard as the starving African farmer ? How hard did the £76 million pound lottery winner work for her ticket ?

Most likely, the crap you receive daily in your job is caused by capitalism. But you can't see it, your single aim in life is to dish out the crap rather than receive it. Capitalism promotes envy and greed. It breaks up families, destroys relationships. It causes wars and famine. It is a failed system.

OK Jabberwocky - I'll ask again - what is the reward with Socialism?
Bill Gates may not have to work particularly hard now but you cannot say that he did not EARN his fortune - our lives would be a lot different without him and the same can be said for most entrepreneurs. I agree that the lottery winner did nothing to earn her wealth - she gambled which is an option open to anyone. How does capitalism promote envy and greed - surely the fault is in those that harbour those feelings rather than in the system itself. As for breaking up relationships - how??? We are currently under a 'socialist' government and are at war. It is not I that has the simplistic view but you - do you really think that everything will be pink and rosy if all the wealth in the country is distributed evenly regardless of individual contribution?

[Jabberwocky]

>OK Jabberwocky - I'll ask again - what is the reward with Socialism?


Final time. The reward is the pleasure of giving, of contributing, of excelling at what you do. It is the satisfaction that you have progressed beyond the wilderbeast on the savannah. It is knowledge that your hospitals care for the sick, that they are clean, that your children are educated not on a whim or as a statistic. The reward is proper social services rather than "care" in the community. It is proper investment in research and technology. The reward is the respect of your peers, the transparency of work, the lowering of stress, the time to see your family.

If your mindset is purely materialistic, none of these things have value to you. So you keep repeating the question, until you become old or sick that is.