So why socialism?

[Jabberwocky]

>What has war got to do with anything Jabber?

War is caused by the very things capitalism promotes: greed, oppression, subjugation, elitism, envy. When you have a large concentration of wealth in one place (Imperial Britain and its colonies), a feeling of humiliation caused by hardship, inequality, economic depression, then extremism is encouraged.
History gives us this lesson as the cause for WWII. It is unfortunate that people cannot see the parallels with the current situation in Iraq.

[The Lone Gunman]

3. taxes pay for a lot of stuff, including stuff I haven't used, having been born, brought up and educated outside of the country, so I should be paying less tax. Only fair really.

Only if you pay the same proportionate tax in the country that provided those things for you, only fair realy.
I take it that you have a private health and pension scheme to cover the state ones you are not paying for too (I have objections to that even if you are).

[John Galt]

>What has war got to do with anything Jabber?

War is caused by the very things capitalism promotes: greed, oppression, subjugation, elitism, envy. When you have a large concentration of wealth in one place (Imperial Britain and its colonies), a feeling of humiliation caused by hardship, inequality, economic depression, then extremism is encouraged.
History gives us this lesson as the cause for WWII. It is unfortunate that people cannot see the parallels with the current situation in Iraq.

I am sorry Jabber but you cannot blame wars on Capitalism. Capitalism (or objectivism which I belive in) does not promote greed, oppression etc. Rather it promotes free trade and individual rights. The greed and envy comes from those who are jealous of the achievements of others. Oppression comes not from the philosophy but from the individuals who are the type that will bully those they view as weaker whatever label they give themselves. Your ideal is just that - an equal division of wealth regardless of achievement or ability cannot work - it was tried and it failed in communist Russia. Your philosophy relies on eveyone being of the same mind and it will never work because there are always those who take rather than earn.

[Jabberwocky]

You go and walk around the investment banks in London then, and tell me Capitalism does not promote greed. It is human nature to be envious of what you cannot have. Look out for balanced representation within those establishments, the motivation for the people working there.
This is the heart of capitalism, making money for money's sake. Tell me about the achievements for our species that has emanated from those walls.
You are trying to argue that Capitalism is not a human construct, but it clearly is, it is means to subjgate the masses using primarily non-violent means. It offers the hope of unparallelled wealth for the few and maintains the status quo. You need to open your eyes and see a system that is not at all free and unrestricted.

[John Galt]

You go and walk around the investment banks in London then, and tell me Capitalism does not promote greed. It is human nature to be envious of what you cannot have. Look out for balanced representation within those establishments, the motivation for the people working there.
This is the heart of capitalism, making money for money's sake. Tell me about the achievements for our species that has emanated from those walls.
You are trying to argue that Capitalism is not a human construct, but it clearly is, it is means to subjgate the masses using primarily non-violent means.

It is human nature to want what you cannot have and some of us will work towards the things we want, some of us will just take what we want with no concern for others and some of us will just bleat about how it's not fair. Some people are motivated by money and if they achieve this without hurting anyone else then what is the probem? And before you say it an investment banker does not harm others with his desires for wealth.

Do you really think that the great inventors and entrepreneurs were all motivated by the pure and selfless desire to help their fellow man? I am not trying to argue that capitalism is not a human construct I merely maintain that the philosophy is not wrong.

Incidentally, is there any chance of you addressing some of the points I have raised Jabber rather than keep fireing questions at me?

[Dundeegeorge]

Yep you're a socialist

It is human nature to be envious, I don't think so.
There is a difference between someone drive up in a great big ****-off car and you saying 'Like the car, I think I'll work a bit harder to get one or cut down my expenses on something else' and saying
'Why's he got a great big car, that 's not fair, we should do away with big cars because I'm too ******* lazy to work for the things I want'.
The problem is that socialism seems always to use the latter!

[SupremeSpod]

It is human nature to be envious, I don't think so.
There is a difference between someone drive up in a great big ****-off car and you saying 'Like the car, I think I'll work a bit harder to get one or cut down my expenses on something else' and saying
'Why's he got a great big car, that 's not fair, we should do away with big cars because I'm too ******* lazy to work for the things I want'.
The problem is that socialism seems always to use the latter!

It's no surprise then that the words "Dirty", "Socialist" and "Scum" go so well together.

The unfortunate thing is that the UK is slowly but surely being taken over by said scum!

[stackpole]

'Why's he got a great big car, that 's not fair, we should do away with big cars.'

And grammar schools
And private healthcare
And private savings

And anything else that stinks of people trying to do better for themselves.

[Jabberwocky]

I think the problem here is the same problem with Chico. You don't like the answers he gives so you keep asking him to answer the question. I have given you the benefits of socialism, but your tiny minds can only see the wanga. I hope at some point you will see that you are chasing something you can never have.

It is interesting to see how the proletariat has sucumbed to this mindset. Wealth is obtained through hard work, so we must work harder for masters.
If I am poor it is because I have not worked hard enough or I don't have the talent of my masters. It is they who judge talent of course. It reminds me of a BBC documentary of the mobile phone millonaire - who extolled his own "business intellegience" - that is intelligence measured by material wealth.

[SupremeSpod]

I think the problem here is the same problem with Chico. You don't like the answers he gives so you keep asking him to answer the question. I have given you the benefits of socialism, but your tiny minds can only see the wanga.

Nope, we're merely looking for justification for why we should work our bollx off to support said socialist scum.

It doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside!