So why socialism?

[SupremeSpod]

A friend of mine at the Golf Club was mentioning this just the other day. There we were, stood on the balcony, G & T in hand when he said, "Spod, we really must do something about the poor!"

"Yes" I replied, "But do you think shooting them is the right answer?"

Spod.

[John Galt]

And you think I am naive Jabber! Are you up beside Chico for a sainthood? So what you are saying is that anyone who has spent years training and studying and developing their chosen field should be more than happy to hand over a vast proportion of their earnings to some oik who has worked for nothing and earned nothing because he bunked off school to take drugs with his mates? Or maybe you think we should all be forced out to work with the State choosing our professions for us.

[Jabberwocky]

Think it through John, I am not asking you to hand over anything. These things must be changed gradually. Next time you are burgled, or mugged or blown up by a terrorist, spare a thought for why that might actually be. What is the cause of war, poverty and hardship. It ain't socialism.

Is the solution to lock up all the terrorists, the criminals, the disadvantaged ?
Create larger prisions, more ghettos, more police, more guns. Limit free speech, remove human rights, start more wars. These are questions for you to answer.

[John Galt]

Think it through John, I am not asking you to hand over anything. These things must be changed gradually. Next time you are burgled, or mugged or blown up by a terrorist, spare a thought for why that might actually be. What is the cause of war, poverty and hardship. It ain't socialism.

Is the solution to lock up all the terrorists, the criminals, the disadvantaged ?
Create larger prisions, more ghettos, more police, more guns. Limit free speech, remove human rights, start more wars. These are questions for you to answer.

What has war got to do with anything Jabber? I didn't say that Socialism caused wars but neither does capitalism. At a very base level wars and violence are caused by Man's primeval instincts to be dominant - survival of the fittest and all that. Why do you think that Capitalists would be more in favour of war and destruction than Solicialists? Didn't seem to cause Mr Bliar too many sleepless nights

[Rebecca Loos]

the debate between you 2 illustrates perfectly why there is such a polarised opinion between capitalists and socialists.

- To the socialist, the rich has only reached their position because of some sort of privileged position. They think successful people had a privileged path to a degree, and then to a junior job, and then had the networks to reach a successful position, from where they will help other privileged kids to follow the same path.

- To the capitalist, the poor take advantage of the money raised by taxing the rich, by getting handouts even though they do nothing to deserve it, so in effect they are getting freebies. The capitalist sees themselves as the only hardworking people in their village, and all the poor as lazy dossers who beg endlessly and pass on this attitude to their offsprings, thus creating a culture of benefits-seeking workshy chavs.

I think the capitalists and the socialists are both right and wrong. They are right in the sense that pushed to its extreme, the system they oppose would generate the people they despise. But they are also wrong because what they fear would only be achieved if a system was 100% capialist (or socialist). But it is not like that. It may be too much tipped towards one or the other, but all it needs is a little tinkering, not a global overhaul. We need capitalism with compassion, or market socialism, whatever name suits it best. I think overall, Britain has got it about right, with a few modifications to make it perfect (more incentive to work, more tax breaks for enterpreneurs, more benefits for genuinely long-term unemployed people,<insert your own>,....)

Rebecca in "vote for me!" mode

[Chico]

I think overall, Britain has got it about right

So why dont you pay your taxes then?

[Rebecca Loos]

1. because even though Britain has got it about right, taxation is still a little bit too high, I reckon
2. also I am a wee bit selfish
3. taxes pay for a lot of stuff, including stuff I haven't used, having been born, brought up and educated outside of the country, so I should be paying less tax. Only fair really.
4. I actually pay a lot in taxes, thinking about it. Bit of income and NI (not much), council tax, road tax, petrol tax, alcohol tax, VAT,..... bloody hell!! Need to do something about that!

[Chico]

Ok so any taxpayers that decide taxes are too high are justified in not paying them?

[SupremeSpod]

Ok so any taxpayers that decide taxes are too high are justified in not paying them?

You're learning...

[Rebecca Loos]

Chico, I don't make it a moral issue. This may be morally wrong (although probably not 100% wrong) but I do it because I can, that's all.

But as a principle, there is something to be said about a (hypothetical) system whereby citizens would only pay for what they approve of, i.e. if I am against the war, I don't want my taxes to go to the MoD etc etc. Unworkable in practice, of course, but if there ever was a way of making it work, wouldn't that be true democracy?