Ageism and Old cruisers

[Not So Wise]

Always of a very split mind over emploment regulations.

While i can see DA's point in say the case of advoiding employing a black female in case she either sods enternally on materinity leave or sues him for "unfair dismissal" on racial grounds, i can also see the benefit many such laws because sadly prejudices do exist in society and our own sector (IT contracting) is probably one of the best places in the workforce to see this.

How so? Well lets see in employing contractors companys are protected in most case's from the common complaints, as we are not employee',s a contractor would have hard case to prove unfair dismissal on say racial,sexist, age grounds because quite simply at the end of the we are not employee's of the client and thus don't have those "protections". Nor does he have to worry about materinity or even sickness leave as he has to pay nothing.

But then one has to ask themselves, why are the vast majority of sucessful contractors, male,white and under 45?

In otherwords, except for the age issue it's exactly like it was 50 years ago before all these laws starting coming when most if not all affluent middle upper class workers were male and white.

Looking back over the last 12 years working in the IT sector, out of the 100's of contractors i have encounted in IT departments i can count on one hand the contractors who were either female, or non white (with the exception of generally low paid help desk people or network support guys) or over 50.I have never encounted a black female contractor or an older (above 35) black male one.

I cannot help but feel that without some of these laws to "help things along" vast majority of the national permanent workforce would be exactly like this as well

The problems for me with these laws types is two things, first off they are treated as the "Ultimate quick solution" and they are not, they are just "cattle prods" to get employeers to start heading in the right direction. Sure goverments get their employment stats up for women and non whites not only in work but in "decent" positions that make the laws look like they are working but they don't tackle the real problem, which infects society it's self, they just cover it up.

Second problem i have with these laws is not the actual laws themselves but how certain people use them to gain unfair advantage (or laws just give them an automatic one) or when they misuse them.

but prejudice is good, prejudice is natural, prejudice is necessary. Prejudice protects us.

Yes prejudice is natural, as it is our natural animal instinct
But i don't know about you but i generally try to rise above negative animal instincts like this and be something more than a base animal.

[threaded]

Top Sports men and women, a counter example

Lance Armstrong, 33, just won his 7th Tour de France.

Michael Rasmussen, 31, King of the mountains.

Both found success after deciding to train on their own away from the team.

[DodgyAgent]

we are a;; right

Lance Armstrong, 33, just won his 7th Tour de France.

Michael Rasmussen, 31, King of the mountains.

Both found success after deciding to train on their own away from the team.

I believe that we all right on this one. There are no absolute rules about how people work at different ages. I will maintain that as a general rule the older people are the more likely that their careers will have flattened out. But I also accept Bob the crates assertion that many older people have good experience.
My point goes back to the fact that there are indeed generalisations that can be fairly made and that there are many different factors in determining the suitability of someone for a job. To crudely state that the problems in the job market are all to do with prejudice against older (or younger) workers insults the employer and worker alike, presumes the idiots in government know best, and completely misunderstands the dynamics of the job market.

[BobTheCrate]

To crudely state that the problems in the job market are all to do with prejudice against older (or younger) workers insults the employer and worker alike

But very few people do blame all or most of the problems in such a way.

My point goes back to the fact that there are indeed generalisations that can be fairly made

Acting arbitrarily on generalisations is what causes the problems DA. Not that somebody has just reached their 50th birthday.

A worthwhile generalisation for you Dodgy, from threaded's website.
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing".

[DodgyAgent]

Acting arbitrarily on generalisations is what causes the problems DA. Not that somebody has just reached their 50th birthday.
".[/B][/I]

I still maintain that someone who is 50 has reached the level of their career and has nothing to offer other than to be able and willing to do what he/she has already done. That is not to say they have no value.

I employ people in their twenties. They have energy, they are keen to learn and they are keen to move onwards in their careers. They work hard, they have the potential to run and develop my business, to enable me to spend more time on this board I also have two fifty five year olds who I regard as "safe pairs of hands". Two people with a wealth of Industry experience. Their experience has told them that they do not wish to
build Rome in 7 days, they are comfortable where they are.. their priorities are quite different from the younger workers.

The younger workers are keen to learn, are keen to earn money. They have yet to realise their potential. The older ones have already reached their potential.

Many companies want younger workers for the same reasons that I do, and they also want older workers for the same reasons I do.
Like in sport it is a hard world out there, and most older workers no longer wish to hit the phones and hustle for business, despite what they may say.
Many of the jobs are transitional in that they are part of a career path that leads somewhere.

There are genuine differences and recruiters should be free to hire accordingly.

[Jabberwocky]

Here is a simple thought experiment for you DA.

Take a hundred rats of the same age and disposition and randomly distribute them in a large maze. At the centre of the maze is the grain - think of yourself as the rat-catcher in this experiment. Now, the rats are off after the grain - but there is only room for one rat to eat the grain. This rat is then the winner, he is the rat with the hunger for success, a dynamic hard-working rat. He is the rat with the will to suck seed.

[The Lone Gunman]

2 notable experiments with a youth based team. Both companies employed young people because their older staff kept taking too long to deliver and were a tad expensive.

1 team missed an anti roll bar that had been common knowledge for 35 years. The other missed a whole host of test mechanism.
Mercedes A class and NASA Mars lander (2 of).

Sometimes age and experience is better than youth and enthusiasm.
A good manager will find a balance

[sasguru]

How ironic ...

... you don't even get the irony, do you Dodgy? Here you are with your fixed ideas that will cause you to overlook the creative older person or the extremely talented black woman (who may well be the exception to the rule).
I think you should quit and let someone more creative take over

[EternalOptimist]

Dodgy knows that in the ideal world his job is to put the right person into the right job.

But its all too much trouble so he reels out the generalisations then rationalises it then justifies it.

He (she?) will come back now and claim that despite all he has said he still puts the right person in the right job

[xoggoth]

If you take the sensible line and drop older jobs/contracts off the back end of your CV they don't know how old your are until you roll up to interview. If you clearly know your stuff then you are in with a chance.

PS Provided you don't drop your colostomy bag on the carpet when leaving, that is. I always fall down on that one.