??????? Scottish independence: New poll shows clear majority for yes vote

[rogerfederer]

Read the context again. If Wee Nicola doesn't like 'being dictated to by Westminster', how would she feel when all the important economic decisions are made in Brussels & Frankfurt.

Scootsy is correct. People up here often find it insulting that some people refer to the SNP or proponents of independence, regardless of politics, as some sort of communist state with "wee Nicola" at the helm. It simply isn't true.

We have proportional representation in Scotland and it's harder to achieve a majority. The SNP, whatever people down in England may think of them, are a cohesive party and the PR system ensures fair spread of hierarchical voting across Scotland. It isn't the First Minister's opinion, it's an opinion gained from those in her party who are voted for in one of the fairest possible democratic systems.

The same can't be said of the UK first past the post voting method. It is therefore crude and more than silly to pretend it's a one leader one party state up in Scotland. I know many people who will vote for independence and also want a wider range of parties to vote for. To me, the strange thing is that only two major parties exist in the UK voting system and yet people speak of it as if it's some enviable democracy. It is nothing of the sort and relies on an archaic hierarchical class structure that favours nepotism and wealthy families.

[rogerfederer]

Scotland's public finances - Full Fact



tell me again what the oil price is?

"Whether or not an independent Scotland would be a net contributor to the EU - and whether it would be able to remain a member in the first place - is a task for another day. Although it makes sense that as a comparatively rich country it would pay in more than it gets out. Analysis from both the Scottish and UK governments seems to back that up."

I've rarely seen a response as bad as that on FullFact. Why swerve the question entirely?

It is actually incredibly difficult to separate out all the finances, because there are many omissions and stats bundled into huge numbers that broken down into showing the distribution between the four UK countries. As the stats are compiled by the ONS and UK Civil Service, they are I assume purposefully vague and absolutely do not provide a definitive total stating a clear breakdown of years Scotland is net positive or negative to the UK exchequer. A lot of research prior to the 2014 independence referendum indicated that Scotland was net positive to the UK exchequer around 65% of the years since 1980.

Regardless: it sounds like swings and roundabouts to me, as you'd expect the country to be net positive and net negative over many decades. The ideology is that Scotland can manage all aspects of its country better as a fully independent country.

Keep in mind that the UK hasn't been 'net positive' for decades and is net negative, that's why the overall finance deficit remains negative. It's therefore a moot point to moan about whether Scotland is net positive or negative - this is literally how every independent country operates!

[Batcher]

Read the context again. If Wee Nicola doesn't like 'being dictated to by Westminster', how would she feel when all the important economic decisions are made in Brussels & Frankfurt.

We would be an equal partner in the EU with more input into the decisions.

Better than being ignored by Westminster.

If we are such a liability why are you so desperate to keep us prisoner?

[Batcher]

Scotland's public finances - Full Fact



tell me again what the oil price is?

What's the price of oil got to do with it?

If it's $200 per barrel or $10 per barrel, Scotland gets $0.

David Cameron lets it slip here - "Norway has a much oil as 'we' do but only 4 million people"

Scotland's 5 million people would be as rich as Norway if we were independent.

David Cameron - Norway Oil - YouTube

[Batcher]

I'm sure the polls will show this until a referendum is announced and then everyone will chicken out (again).

I'm happy to put that theory to the test.

54% for Yes before we've started a campaign. in 2012 Yes was at 26% when the campaign started.

62% Remainers in Scotland not happy with a no-deal Brexit.

Why can't England stand on her own two feet?

[vetran]

What's the price of oil got to do with it?

If it's $200 per barrel or $10 per barrel, Scotland gets $0.

David Cameron lets it slip here - "Norway has a much oil as 'we' do but only 4 million people"

Scotland's 5 million people would be as rich as Norway if we were independent.

David Cameron - Norway Oil - YouTube

Norway got rich at $100+ a barrel, post fracking and with a move to zero emissions we wont be seeing that any time soon.

[Old Greg]

We would be an equal partner in the EU with more input into the decisions.

Better than being ignored by Westminster.

If we are such a liability why are you so desperate to keep us prisoner?

They want to drag you down with them into their Blitz spirit fantasy world.

[Mordac]

Scootsy is correct. People up here often find it insulting that some people refer to the SNP or proponents of independence, regardless of politics, as some sort of communist state with "wee Nicola" at the helm. It simply isn't true.

We have proportional representation in Scotland and it's harder to achieve a majority. The SNP, whatever people down in England may think of them, are a cohesive party and the PR system ensures fair spread of hierarchical voting across Scotland. It isn't the First Minister's opinion, it's an opinion gained from those in her party who are voted for in one of the fairest possible democratic systems.

The same can't be said of the UK first past the post voting method. It is therefore crude and more than silly to pretend it's a one leader one party state up in Scotland. I know many people who will vote for independence and also want a wider range of parties to vote for. To me, the strange thing is that only two major parties exist in the UK voting system and yet people speak of it as if it's some enviable democracy. It is nothing of the sort and relies on an archaic hierarchical class structure that favours nepotism and wealthy families.

If the SNP put someone else up in front of the cameras every now and then, we wouldn't have that perception. Those of us who follow Westminster politics get to 'enjoy' Ian Blackford on a regular basis, but he's a single-issue man at the moment (that being the one I'm not allowed to mention here).

[Batcher]

Norway got rich at $100+ a barrel, post fracking and with a move to zero emissions we wont be seeing that any time soon.

An independent Scotland will be aiming to be green so we'll be looking to keep the oil where it is.

We are supplying enough wind power to meet our energy needs.

Scotland generating enough wind energy to power two Scotlands | The Independent

We've got plenty of the new oil - water. We'll get rich selling some of it south of the border (if you can afford to buy it )

Water supply in parts of England at 'serious risk' of running out within 20 years, MPs warn | London Evening Standard

[malvolio]

I'm happy to put that theory to the test.

54% for Yes before we've started a campaign. in 2012 Yes was at 26% when the campaign started.

62% Remainers in Scotland not happy with a no-deal Brexit.

Why can't England stand on her own two feet?

OK, test failed. The 2012 referendum was skewed by Salmond's fantasy economics, such that enough people believed that they would be better off outside the UK. Reality was that you wouldn't have been (or, to be strictly accurate, wouldn't have been in 2012 given recent events). And while the worlds has changed, you won't be joining the EU as some kind of desirable state, on the basis that (a) there a damned long queue and (b) your gross income might be enough for Scotland (although I doubt it and people would soon get annoyed at how much things are starting to cost) but it's not exactly getting you into the G20.

The economic argument simply doesn't work by itself. You need to find some rather more cogent reason to get out of the UK.