Alfie Evans....

[TheGreenBastard]

Especially when the medical advice from the NHS is radically different to that from the rest of the developed world.

Is there a religious angle to your position on this matter?

[northernladyuk]

Being left to die in a hospital room isn't particularly in his interest.

It may be, if further treatment (as distinct from care which would not be withdrawn) is not in his best interest. The grounds for such a judgment would usually be futility.

Being left to die in a hospital room isn't particularly in his interest.

A patient with capacity to make decisions has the right to make decisions on their own behalf. A parent has the right to make decisions on behalf of their child, if they are in the child's best interest, and the threshold for intervening when the parent is acting against the child's best interest is fairly high. For example, the state would not intervene to seek court wardship for a parent who declines to give consent for an MMR vaccine for a healthy child. The state might seek to intervene if a parent declines to give consent for a hepatitis B vaccination for a child on haemodialysis, because of the significant risk of harm.

So parental rights are not the same as competent patient rights.

[northernladyuk]

Especially when the medical advice from the NHS is radically different to that from the rest of the developed world.

In this case the framework is published by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health:

Making decisions to limit treatment in life-limiting and life-threatening conditions in children: a framework for practice | Archives of Disease in Childhood

It is not 'NHS medical advice'. The NHS follows the advice of the Royal College.

[CoolCat]

Is there a religious angle to your position on this matter?

No none at all

[vwdan]

No none at all

Gonna answer my main question to you that you're still avoiding?

[SueEllen]

A patient with capacity to make decisions has the right to make decisions on their own behalf. A parent has the right to make decisions on behalf of their child, if they are in the child's best interest, and the threshold for intervening when the parent is acting against the child's best interest is fairly high. For example, the state would not intervene to seek court wardship for a parent who declines to give consent for an MMR vaccine for a healthy child. The state might seek to intervene if a parent declines to give consent for a hepatitis B vaccination for a child on haemodialysis, because of the significant risk of harm.

So parental rights are not the same as competent patient rights.

You forgot "Gillick competent" where some patients under 16 are allowed to make decisions on their own behalf. This can be controversial e.g. contraception, but mainly means if child refuses to consent to something e.g. a physical examination then neither the parent or the medical practitioner can force them to have one. However in serious cases e.g. hepatitis B vaccination for a child on hemodialysis then court approval would needed to be sought to give treatment.

[NotAllThere]

Parents do not have ultimate control over their children's health - but at least it requires court cases to take away their power. In countries whose laws are based on the Napoleonic code - which is most of Western Europe and a fair bit of Central Europe - it's much easier for the state to take over.

Personally, I'd allow Alfie to be flown to the Vatican. Since he's effectively no functioning brain, can he even experience suffering? But if the people with really knowledge of the case and medical understanding say no, then their opinion is the one that counts. That's the rule of law in the UK.

The judge pointed out to Alfie's parents that their case is being hijacked by people who love to jump to a cause... until the next cause comes along, when they'll be dropped like a hot potato. The parents are definitely being used.

[northernladyuk]

Parents do not have ultimate control over their children's health - but at least it requires court cases to take away their power. In countries whose laws are based on the Napoleonic code - which is most of Western Europe and a fair bit of Central Europe - it's much easier for the state to take over.

Personally, I'd allow Alfie to be flown to the Vatican. Since he's effectively no functioning brain, can he even experience suffering? But if the people with really knowledge of the case and medical understanding say no, then their opinion is the one that counts. That's the rule of law in the UK.

The judge pointed out to Alfie's parents that their case is being hijacked by people who love to jump to a cause... until the next cause comes along, when they'll be dropped like a hot potato. The parents are definitely being used.

The medical opinion is not what really counts. It is taken into consideration by the courts.

I would be interested to know what those who assert the absolute right of parents over the state, think of Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse consent for their child to receive life saving blood products.

[Zigenare]

It'll be interesting to see what the post-mortem reveals - does Alfie have something akin to CJD?

[SueEllen]

Parents do not have ultimate control over their children's health - but at least it requires court cases to take away their power. In countries whose laws are based on the Napoleonic code - which is most of Western Europe and a fair bit of Central Europe - it's much easier for the state to take over.

Personally, I'd allow Alfie to be flown to the Vatican. Since he's effectively no functioning brain, can he even experience suffering? But if the people with really knowledge of the case and medical understanding say no, then their opinion is the one that counts. That's the rule of law in the UK.

The judge pointed out to Alfie's parents that their case is being hijacked by people who love to jump to a cause... until the next cause comes along, when they'll be dropped like a hot potato. The parents are definitely being used.

Just because he has "no functioning" brain doesn't mean he doesn't respond to stimuli and feel pain.

Added to that is it fair on the medical staff and the fight crew to fly out such a sick child? If he has a seizure or dies on the flight it may traumatise them. It is forgotten that medical staff and flight crew can experience trauma when doing their jobs that can stop them working. I actually know some people who can't work in some specialities of medicine due to this.

Finally are the Vatican going to provide long term support and counselling for AE's parents? Are their random Christian campaigning supporters? Nope it will be left to parts of the NHS and UK charities, who may get some funding from the UK government.