November Budget - Stop Public sector IR35 rules coming into the Private sector

[Lost It]

Admirable, it's already been sent but I'm adding this in case anyone wanted to use it as a template.

My question if I received it would be, these projects would still go ahead except you would be working in a company that paid the correct amount of tax, so how is it a complete disaster? No. I've been "Requested" due to past works completed. And frankly I wouldn't travel that far for £40-45k.. I would seek work closer to home, and there isn't as much of it.

If the salary is too low then companies would have to pay more (if the demand is there). This would put the costs up quite substantially, prelims etc. Most business is won on costs unfortunately, even now. If they "upped my rate" the rest of the Permies might well ask for parity? The demand is there, just look at the skyline in London at how many cranes you can see.

I wouldn't believe that you and your mates stop all economic activity. We wouldn't be able to afford the costs of travelling. The Freelance rates reflect the job, same as any trade. So no it wouldn't stop, but it would have to be people local to the works. And if there are people there that can do this, that are available, I'd argue that the case for "importing" me isn't necessary. I see your point. But practically, there aren't that many with the same qualifications, experience, abilities as us old farts.

So they'd be "teething problems" but that's it. I'd have gone for the angle of the risk we carry, you are successful others not so, you have I assume good health others not so. When there is no work, there is no money and for that we charge a (small) premium.

I have Dukes stage 3 cancer. So not brilliant health. Others are healthier, but as a rule of thumb, the older you are, the more prone you are to not being 100% healthy. Goes with the trade, it's by definition hard on you as a youngster, many are ex Brickies, ex Joiners, ex Sparkies, not jobs that are good to your joints. I'm an ex miner, and that job definitely screws you up... We are effectively passing on our years of "knowing what we know". That's where our worth comes from. To be fair I find that some of the managers tend to be the "Sit in the office bashing away at keyboard" types these days, especially the permie ones. As a Contractor your last job completed is the one you are judged on, so you have to work to a standard all the time. Good ones noted in sand. bad ones chiseled into granite as they say.

[Antman]

Agree, being a plumber in your fifties and having to get underneath sinks and drains is a tough gig.

Sorry to hear about your illness, I hope it sorts itself out soon.

[SueEllen]

I have Dukes stage 3 cancer. So not brilliant health. Others are healthier, but as a rule of thumb, the older you are, the more prone you are to not being 100% healthy. Goes with the trade, it's by definittion hard on you as a youngster, many are ex Brickies, ex Joiners, ex Sparkies, not jobs that are good to your joints. I'm an ex miner, and that job definitely screws you up... We are effectively passing on our years of "knowing what we know". That's where our worth comes from.

If you are willing to be in the media then contact TheFaQQer.

[d000hg]

Arguing on numbers is difficult for people to understand - particularly when the headline percentages aren't in line. That's true whether you are trying to explain to a permie, a journalist, an MP or anyone else.

Where the argument can be made that people understand is around what we have to pay for that they don't - holiday pay, sick pay, jury duty cover, pensions, maternity / paternity pay, insurance, risk that the clients disappear without paying.

And each of those has a "human interest" element to it that people can relate to.

A human interest story until they realise you earned £70+k last year and everyone is blinded to all those quite correct points. Even if you are spending £30k on expenses, people will fixate on the big number and lose compassion. "Oh you'll have to switch to cava" etc

[TheFaQQer]

A human interest story until they realise you earned £70+k last year and everyone is blinded to all those quite correct points. Even if you are spending £30k on expenses, people will fixate on the big number and lose compassion. "Oh you'll have to switch to cava" etc

That's why you don't discuss the numbers - you discuss the issues that you can win the argument on, such as the expenses you bear yourself, the downtime that you don't get paid for, the sickness cover etc.

Being able to say "yes, but when I was hospitalised for six weeks I had no income, my client wouldn't wait, I lost the business and it took me six months of no income before I found another contract" puts things in perspective.

[Lost It]

Agree, being a plumber in your fifties and having to get underneath sinks and drains is a tough gig.

Sorry to hear about your illness, I hope it sorts itself out soon.

Yes. Life's a beeitch then you die... And it's not anyone's fault c had a bash at me. Forgot to mention Plumbers. Sorry. But again they are a very valuable part of the art of building stuff. And usually make good managers as well.

[mattfx]

If the proposed IR35 changes come in, I would almost be better off going back to my permie job I was at before going contracting, as it stand today. In fact, because I couldn't claim any travel.. I almost certainly would be better off because my last job was 3 miles from my house.

I have had a lot of sad recent events, none of them particularly relevant unless I can amp up the whole "stress of not knowing whether you have another gig in 3 months, plus lifes stress" thing... Don't know, might be an angle... I'm happy to speak out.

[mattfx]

Sent my letter in Email form to Maria Miller today... Bit long winded but I wrote the entire thing myself.

Dear Maria,

I am writing to you to voice my extreme concerns over the proposed IR35 tax legislation changes in the private sector which were reported in the Financial Times on Sunday, 29th of October. Please could you pass my comments below on to the treasury.

IR35 is legislation pertaining to disguised or hidden employees: Contractors who, in the main, are performing duties similar to a permanent member of staff for an end client. The proposed changes shift the responsibility of definition for being inside or outside of IR35 from the contractor, on to the hiring agency / end client. The changes would see any fines when a contractor is found to be inside IR35 are then passed on to the client, rather than the contractor.

Whilst this sounds like an insignificant change, the implementation of it in the Public Sector earlier this year lead to a mass walkout of contractors in a number of public bodies such as TFL and the NHS, leaving projects unfinished and a general skills shortage within the Public Sector market. This happened because none of these public bodies wished to risk the chance of being fined for contractors found to be within IR35, so they deemed all of their contracting roles to be "inside" even if the role patently wasn’t.

Being inside of IR35 means that contractors cannot expense items such as hotel visits or flights – many of us within the flexible work force need to expense such items in order to work. Some of us travel vast distances for very niche roles and as such, have a requirement to off-set travel costs against tax. Furthermore, Theresa May and Philip Hammond said earlier in the year that a contractor earning £100,000 a year should be taxed in the same manner as a permanent member of staff earning the same wage. Why? Permanent members of staff have a fixed commute and fixed expenses. Flexible contractors have no fixed commute, no fixed expenses and most importantly - no fixed income. Whilst on occasion the duties we perform in some roles may appear similar, the fact we can do it in such a flexible manner gives us great value to the clients on the hiring end of the agreement, often saving them significant amounts of money.

Genuine contractors such as myself also face the prospect of being out of work every three to six months, have highly niche and often highly stressful projects to carry out, have additional paperwork and administration costs such as accountancy firms and business liability insurance incurred. For a contractor to earn as much take home pay after holidays, time off sick and very often, time off between contracts, we need to earn a significant amount more than our permanently employed counterparts. Gross salary is typically used as a weapon against us in debate, but whilst a permanent member of staff enjoy their 25+ paid holiday and 5 paid sick days per annum, any holiday days we elect to take are unpaid and any serious unplanned sickness can cause catastrophic financial damage. This I feel is never really highlighted when discussion around contractors / flexible workers are held.

To be clear; I am all for HMRC tackling genuinely disguised employees, contractors who are reaping tax benefits of running a PSC but have been at their client for a number of years doing the same role they did when they started. That is fair. However, to unfairly punish genuine contractors by making such a large sweeping change to IR35 legislation is unfair and would cost micro businesses such as mine tens, of thousands of pounds a year.

Lastly, implementing this change will cause a disastrous skill shortage in the flexible work force; I predict a large number of us would no longer feel incentivised to put up with the aforementioned risks and instead, would look to take permanent jobs. This would actually have a negative effect on the market, with highly skilled contractors applying for relatively averagely paid permanent positions, salary's for other permanent members of staff could end up being reduced do to the heightened skill ceiling and overall, devaluing the permanent market.

I look forward to your comments.


Hopefully that about sums it up!?

[northernladuk]

Vast distances?

[pr1]

unless I can amp up the whole "stress of not knowing whether you have another gig in 3 months

good luck with that, lots of workers on zero hours contracts don't know if they'll have work tomorrow let alone in 3 months time