November Budget - Stop Public sector IR35 rules coming into the Private sector

[mattfx]

good luck with that, lots of workers on zero hours contracts don't know if they'll have work tomorrow let alone in 3 months time

Not being rude, but 0 hour contracts usually apply to low skills jobs or when employing those with a lack of skills so if the employee is useless they are easy to get rid of. Obviously there are other benefits such as not having to pay people on quiet days etc.

If we are all so busy focusing on the counter argument rather than trying to put our point across then these changes are going to come into effect and we will have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Anyone who hasn't written to their MP to at least voice a concern has absolutely no right to moan if these changes get pushed through.

Don't be a Negative Nancy - try and make a difference.

[eek]

good luck with that, lots of workers on zero hours contracts don't know if they'll have work tomorrow let alone in 3 months time

+1. The problem with zero hour contracts is that the arguments we used to be able to use are no longer valid as zero hour contracts offer the same options within an employment contract.

[mattfx]

+1. The problem with zero hour contracts is that the arguments we used to be able to use are no longer valid as zero hour contracts offer the same options within an employment contract.

I strongly disagree - you're talking about different types / classes of worker in completely different industries. Do you disagree that many of our roles are consultative type roles? And do you also disagree that most zero hour contracts apply to bar staff, cleaners, baristas, etc.? There's no comparison.

And before anyone goes on about the whole people can't break out of the "low skilled" element; if people want to upskill and get out of zero hour contracts there are night courses at colleges, apprenticeships and many other ways and means of doing so. However on the whole people are to lazy to do anything about it!

[pr1]

Not being rude, but 0 hour contracts usually apply to low skills jobs or when employing those with a lack of skills so if the employee is useless they are easy to get rid of. Obviously there are other benefits such as not having to pay people on quiet days etc.

If we are all so busy focusing on the counter argument rather than trying to put our point across then these changes are going to come into effect and we will have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Anyone who hasn't written to their MP to at least voice a concern has absolutely no right to moan if these changes get pushed through.

Don't be a Negative Nancy - try and make a difference.

Imagine you're sat on the This Morning sofa with Philip and Holly - "I'm paid £500 a day but I don't know whether I'll be in work three months from now, I shouldn't have to pay the same tax rate as an employee" - next to a single mum zero hours minimum wage waitress who doesn't know if she will be able afford to pay her rent again this month because work didn't need her this week - like I said, good luck

imo the best chance of a winning argument is comparing the similarities between "us" and BigCo's, if you try to compare "us" [being different] to employees you have a much more uphill battle

[northernladyuk]

Imagine you're sat on the This Morning sofa with Philip and Holly - "I'm paid £500 a day but I don't know whether I'll be in work three months from now, I shouldn't have to pay the same tax rate as an employee" - next to a single mum zero hours minimum wage waitress who doesn't know if she will be able afford to pay her rent again this month because work didn't need her this week - like I said, good luck

imo the best chance of a winning argument is comparing the similarities between "us" and BigCo's, if you try to compare "us" [being different] to employees you have a much more uphill battle

It needs someone with big travel expenses and four different clients around the country in a given year, where they can make a living outside IR35 but are running below NMW outside IR35.

[mattfx]

Imagine you're sat on the This Morning sofa with Philip and Holly - "I'm paid £500 a day but I don't know whether I'll be in work three months from now, I shouldn't have to pay the same tax rate as an employee" - next to a single mum zero hours minimum wage waitress who doesn't know if she will be able afford to pay her rent again this month because work didn't need her this week - like I said, good luck

imo the best chance of a winning argument is comparing the similarities between "us" and BigCo's, if you try to compare "us" [being different] to employees you have a much more uphill battle

Firstly, I don't earn anywhere near that. There are many of us with very modest day rates. I could go back to permie land tomorrow and probably take home the same wage as my current contract by the time you factor in benefits and a 8 weeks of bench time, but i'd rather not. So yeah, the stress of not having a job is real for me, not being able to afford to live if I don't find additional work relatively quickly is also real. However I have a good support network and am fortunate my parents would if pushed, probably help me out for a month or two.

The waitress has many options besides working the one job, many which she can do at home. Survey taking and Profit Accumulator are just two examples of zero cost platforms she could use to top her income up and help make her life more secure. But she probably won't want to do that by the time shes super tired from working her zero hours contract and sat around at home for a few hours catching up on the goggle box.

Opportunity is everywhere but usually people are too lazy to look or act upon it.

[mattfx]

It needs someone with big travel expenses and four different clients around the country in a given year, where they can make a living outside IR35 but are running below NMW outside IR35.

Ideally yes, you're spot on - that's exactly who is needed.

[malvolio]

All great fun, but totally wrong.

We should be emphasising that we are suppliers of knowledge and skills, operating in the exact same way as any other business and engaged on a B2B basis, making all this tulip about "we're not employees" totally unnecessary. Even Andy Hallett agreed with me on that point.

Sadly it's the agencies that have got us into this position by selling us as temporary workers under their control. That is what needs to be broken.

[bobspud]

All great fun, but totally wrong.

We should be emphasising that we are suppliers of knowledge and skills, operating in the exact same way as any other business and engaged on a B2B basis, making all this tulip about "we're not employees" totally unnecessary. Even Andy Hallett agreed with me on that point.

Sadly it's the agencies that have got us into this position by selling us as temporary workers under their control. That is what needs to be broken.

But technically I have never ever worked with any client that had any form of control over me other than agreed deliverables. Most of the work I have ever done its a struggle to find the agent after the invoices start rolling in.

[pr1]

Firstly, I don't earn anywhere near that. There are many of us with very modest day rates. I could go back to permie land tomorrow and probably take home the same wage as my current contract by the time you factor in benefits and a 8 weeks of bench time, but i'd rather not. So yeah, the stress of not having a job is real for me, not being able to afford to live if I don't find additional work relatively quickly is also real. However I have a good support network and am fortunate my parents would if pushed, probably help me out for a month or two.

The waitress has many options besides working the one job, many which she can do at home. Survey taking and Profit Accumulator are just two examples of zero cost platforms she could use to top her income up and help make her life more secure. But she probably won't want to do that by the time shes super tired from working her zero hours contract and sat around at home for a few hours catching up on the goggle box.

I also earn less, I used the approx average rate from the IPSE freelancer confidence index latest data for my example (which was £489) which is the kind of number a HMRC researcher would find and use to form their counter argument
(https://www.ipse.co.uk/resource/free...-2017-pdf.html)

Opportunity is everywhere but usually people are too lazy to look or act upon it.

Just because you are doing comparatively well in life you shouldn't assume everyone who isn't is "too lazy"