November Budget - Stop Public sector IR35 rules coming into the Private sector

[SueEllen]

I can't see it getting anywhere with MPs. Doesn't anyone have contacts with someone in the Mail or Express to put together a frothing at the mouth Middle Britain / hard pressed self-employed / backbone of the country kind of story?

It needs a proper PR campaign IMO, not lobbying MPs. Does IPSE do this kind of thing?

Papers will pick up the story if the characters are interesting enough e.g. a sob story.

[northernladyuk]

Papers will pick up the story if the characters are interesting enough e.g. a sob story.

But it needs a professional PR campaign to get it in the papers IMO.

[eek]

Papers will pick up the story if the characters are interesting enough e.g. a sob story.

You need both a sob story and a person willing to take the flak from the publicity said sob story generates....

That's why its very hard to find people to stand up and get counted...

[Guesstimator]

Arguing on numbers is difficult for people to understand - particularly when the headline percentages aren't in line. That's true whether you are trying to explain to a permie, a journalist, an MP or anyone else.

Where the argument can be made that people understand is around what we have to pay for that they don't - holiday pay, sick pay, jury duty cover, pensions, maternity / paternity pay, insurance, risk that the clients disappear without paying.

And each of those has a "human interest" element to it that people can relate to.

I agree with you, but even any discussions around the difference in working conditions is just stonewalled. The money you earn vs the money they earn dominates their viewpoint.

For me the baldest/easiest number to respond with when people argue "you're not paying your fair of tax" is the total amount of tax paid when comparing any given individual's circumstances as PAYE vs circumstance as Ltd. I know it's a simplistic argument but it avoids the subjectivity of what "fair" means to different people and actually opens up the crux of their objections which are, effectively, envy.

It's always going to be a tough sell to the general public frankly, because really it just comes down to envy that contractors can take home more and envy that contractors are more in control of their working practices and life.

When mates/colleagues have a go at me for operating under Ltd and I suggest that there's no reason they couldn't do the same they suddenly become the pinnacles of morality to defend why they wouldn't do that, suddenly becoming intensely proud of paying as much tax as they can. It's bollocks and they know it, but if they admitted to themselves why they can't do it (they're scared/comfortable) they'd blow their own argument out of the water on why I have the opportunity to earn more than them/they have the opportunity to be more secure and have benefits and therefore why there's a perceived pay discrepancy that actually isn't there.
Hell, even my other half uses it against me in arguments every so often.

Getting people onside isn't about convincing them that contractors are hard done by, it's about demonstrating that the main reason clients use contractors is because it saves them money....if that flexible workforce goes, and that avenue to cost saving goes, who's going to make up the shortfall? Joseph and Josephine Public, that's who. Whether it from increased costs, or reduced services (as is evident in the public sector, eg TfL postponing projects).

[Lost It]

Just sent this.

My letter to my MP. The IPSE one didn't really say what I needed to put across. I was going to suggest that if MP's were subject to the same rules I could live with that..

"Dear Mr Mak


I appreciate that this is nothing more than Rumour at the moment. But:

I am resident on Hayling Island, due to my skill set I travel to London on a daily basis to build, improve and maintain various facilities within London, my three latest projects in chronological order were the Institute of Mechanical Engineers at Birdcage Walk, the Science Museum on Exhibition Road, and I am currently working at the Royal Pharmaceutical Society on East Smithfield, all three positions have been as Site Manager, apparently I’m good at my job and my skills are required.

I’m also a member of ICE. This week I was interviewed for a project at HMP Bullingdon, which would require me travelling most days due to the nature of the works. As it is I commute to London every day, by Motorcycle to keep my emissions footprint as low as possible and have the least effect on congestion. It’s even a Euro 4 model bike that I use.

I’m self employed, through a Ltd Company, I collect VAT, pay my taxes on time, and effectively support a few other people within my works, should IR35 rules come into force, I would not be able to carry on offering the services I supply within the construction industry.

I urge you to PLEASE take this up with the Chancellor before he destroys what’s left of the flexible professional work force this country so badly needs. I have no doubt that the “Skills shortage” would become a “Skills Dearth” within construction should this ruinous policy change be introduced.

I have friends working Cross rail, friends working on the clock tower at Parliament right now who will need to cease working as they are literally in the same boat as I am.

It would be a complete disaster where I am sat. Plus, I guess, the Chancellor would lose all that Fuel tax as I wouldn’t need to travel any more...

Best Regards"

[TheFaQQer]

Doesn't anyone have contacts with someone in the Mail or Express to put together a frothing at the mouth Middle Britain / hard pressed self-employed / backbone of the country kind of story?

Yes. But it needs someone to stand up and be counted, to put a face to the story and be prepared to speak up - individuals get stories, a homogeneous group of tax avoiders do not. That's why I've spoken to The Times, Sunday Times and Financial Times in the past. That's why I've written in The Guardian in the past - because we need people to stand up and be counted.

If you, or anyone you know, is prepared to speak out about it then that's brilliant - particularly if you work in the NHS or in security cleared environments. Let me know and I'll put you in touch.

[SueEllen]

My letter to my MP. The IPSE one didn't really say what I needed to put across.

Nice letter as it is personalised.

Hopefully your MP will get back to you as quickly as mine did and if he doesn't forward it to the Treasury ask him to.

[Antman]

My letter to my MP. The IPSE one didn't really say what I needed to put across. I was going to suggest that if MP's were subject to the same rules I could live with that..

"Dear Mr Mak


I appreciate that this is nothing more than Rumour at the moment. But:

I am resident on Hayling Island, due to my skill set I travel to London on a daily basis to build, improve and maintain various facilities within London, my three latest projects in chronological order were the Institute of Mechanical Engineers at Birdcage Walk, the Science Museum on Exhibition Road, and I am currently working at the Royal Pharmaceutical Society on East Smithfield, all three positions have been as Site Manager, apparently I’m good at my job and my skills are required.

I’m also a member of ICE. This week I was interviewed for a project at HMP Bullingdon, which would require me travelling most days due to the nature of the works. As it is I commute to London every day, by Motorcycle to keep my emissions footprint as low as possible and have the least effect on congestion. It’s even a Euro 4 model bike that I use.

I’m self employed, through a Ltd Company, I collect VAT, pay my taxes on time, and effectively support a few other people within my works, should IR35 rules come into force, I would not be able to carry on offering the services I supply within the construction industry.

I urge you to PLEASE take this up with the Chancellor before he destroys what’s left of the flexible professional work force this country so badly needs. I have no doubt that the “Skills shortage” would become a “Skills Dearth” within construction should this ruinous policy change be introduced.

I have friends working Cross rail, friends working on the clock tower at Parliament right now who will need to cease working as they are literally in the same boat as I am.

It would be a complete disaster where I am sat. Plus, I guess, the Chancellor would lose all that Fuel tax as I wouldn’t need to travel any more...

Best Regards"

Admirable, it's already been sent but I'm adding this in case anyone wanted to use it as a template.

My question if I received it would be, these projects would still go ahead except you would be working in a company that paid the correct amount of tax, so how is it a complete disaster?

If the salary is too low then companies would have to pay more (if the demand is there).

I wouldn't believe that you and your mates stop all economic activity.

So they'd be "teething problems" but that's it. I'd have gone for the angle of the risk we carry, you are successful others not so, you have I assume good health others not so. When there is no work, there is no money and for that we charge a (small) premium.

[northernladyuk]

Yes. But it needs someone to stand up and be counted, to put a face to the story and be prepared to speak up - individuals get stories, a homogeneous group of tax avoiders do not. That's why I've spoken to The Times, Sunday Times and Financial Times in the past. That's why I've written in The Guardian in the past - because we need people to stand up and be counted.

If you, or anyone you know, is prepared to speak out about it then that's brilliant - particularly if you work in the NHS or in security cleared environments. Let me know and I'll put you in touch.

It needs someone who's not making that much money. 100k + will get no sympathy. Maybe PC could do it - heart warming tale of unemployed bloke from the Valleys who picks himself up to travel long distances for a public sector BAU desktop support role, but can't claim expenses. That kind of thing.

[jamesbrown]

It needs someone who's not making that much money. 100k + will get no sympathy. Maybe PC could do it - heart warming tale of unemployed bloke from the Valleys who picks himself up to travel long distances for a public sector BAU desktop support role, but can't claim expenses. That kind of thing.

What about the JSA? Don't mention the war?