Catalonia

[northernladyuk]

During the civil war Cataluña fought to be part of the Spanish republic against Franco's Nationalist forces (with a view to having a degree of anarchistic autonomy as a province due to the inequalities created via industrialists and their workers).

Aragon and even Portugal for example were separate "states" (Portugal part of the Iberian Union) before Aragon was annexed into (a future) Spain and also Portugal into a separate nation. You think it's ok for the the people of a province (essentially like a UK county) to suddenly stage an election without official permission and become independent ?, same for Portugal them suddenly wanting a vote to become part of Spain (and there are some that want that) with no legal basis at either the national or European level ?? Cataluña doesn't even have it's own central bank or mint like Scotland (which is a country not a province -Wales similar). So yes it is a bit like Lancashire saying lets go it alone tomorrow morning.

Galicia and the Basque Country both have their own culture and language also - should every province in Spain just break off into it's own independent country ? why stop there, lets have city boroughs that are their nations, smaller than Andorra. Lets go one step further, Mr. Ramon Gonzalez Pezón of finca Flamingo Rosa wants his country home to be separate with it's own laws ! (silly I know but I bet there are some nutters that wish such a thing) too much wannabee devolution and not enough understanding of the economic / social / military benefits of being united as one nation; as if independence is going to benefit the average man, woman and child in Cataluña, it's a pitch for a shift of power which will benefit scum politicians. Essentially these Catalonian politicians have demonstrated intent for an illegal coup having whipped up the region's population into a storm of Catalonian national pride and then played the victim when social order was inevitably enforced. They should work within the established political and legal framework - go to the European Parliment / Commission and demand a referendum, they hold true power over Spain and if that doesn't work well tough.

CBA to rip the whole of this apart, but Wales and Scotland are both countries and neither has a central bank or mint, although some commercial banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland do produce bank notes. Take it as read that the rest of your post is in general similarly ill informed.

[sasguru]

CBA to rip the whole of this apart, but Wales and Scotland are both countries and neither has a central bank or mint, although some commercial banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland do produce bank notes. Take it as read that the rest of your post is in general similarly ill informed.

Not an expert but it doesn't seem terribly ill-informed to me.
The referendum was unlawful according to Spanish law. Although I agree the response was heavy-handed in the extreme.
If every region in Europe with a hankering for "independence" decided to have its own referendum, the result would be chaos.
One thing I've noticed is that we haven't heard much from Catalonians NOT in favour of independence, who appear to be in the majority:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...is-spains-view

Looks like most of them decided not to vote in an illegal referendum, so obviously the result was 90% for, with a non-representative subset voting

[northernladyuk]

Not an expert but it doesn't seem terribly ill-informed to me.
The referendum was unlawful according to Spanish law. Although I agree the response was heavy-handed in the extreme.
If every region in Europe with a hankering for "independence" decided to have its own referendum, the result would be chaos.
One thing I've noticed is that we haven't heard much from Catalonians NOT in favour of independence, who appear to be in the majority:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...is-spains-view

Which is why the easiest thing would be to find a way to permit a referendum, which in all likelihood would have failed. Separatism is a perfectly legitimate and respectable aspiration and where a constitution is in effect 'rigged' to prevent self-determination, then there is an argument for separatists to act peacefully outside of the constitution (take a look at declarative models of self-determination if you are interested). I don't think it is enough to state that Spain is a democracy and the constitution and law must be respected. This does not in itself guarantee rights (such as the right to self-determination).

The pickle that has been created by Spanish intransigence (and brutality) and Catalan separatist determination to go forward outside of the Spanish constitution.

[sasguru]

Which is why the easiest thing would be to find a way to permit a referendum, which in all likelihood would have failed. Separatism is a perfectly legitimate and respectable aspiration and where a constitution is in effect 'rigged' to prevent self-determination, then there is an argument for separatists to act peacefully outside of the constitution (take a look at declarative models of self-determination if you are interested). I don't think it is enough to state that Spain is a democracy and the constitution and law must be respected. This does not in itself guarantee rights (such as the right to self-determination).

The pickle that has been created by Spanish intransigence (and brutality) and Catalan separatist determination to go forward outside of the Spanish constitution.

Yes, the Spanish government has shot itself in the foot with its cretinous response.
If a majority of Catalans don't support independence, the best thing to have done would be to ignore it.
Good to know that our government doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity.

Interesting to note that Catalonia certainly doesn't want to leave the EU.

[SimonMac]

Yes, the Spanish government has shot itself in the foot with its cretinous response.
If a majority of Catalans don't support independence, the best thing to have done would be to ignore it.
Good to know that our government doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity.

Interesting to note that Catalonia certainly doesn't want to leave the EU.

For the same reason Scotland is not in the EU, the UK is. Catalonia can't stay in the EU if it declares independence from Spain as it's not a member to begin with and Spain will block any attempt Scotland joining the EU because it will give Catalonia hope if it applies.

[northernladyuk]

For the same reason Scotland is not in the EU, the UK is. Catalonia can't stay in the EU if it declares independence from Spain as it's not a member to begin with and Spain will block any attempt Scotland joining the EU because it will give Catalonia hope if it applies.

The route for Catalonia to remain in or even rejoin the EU is difficult. The most likely path to either of these outcomes is via an eventual negotiated settlement with Spain. While Spain sees that it can keep Catalonia, it will of course fight and struggle. If it comes to the point when Catalonia is lost, Spain will need to decide whether to make things work amicably (does Spain want customs and passport control with Catalonia, with its main international rail and a major road route going via Barcelona, not to mention whatever supply chain issues this would create?) or to isolate Catalonia pour encourager les autres (e.g. Basque Country and Galicia). The EU might put pressure in the background to make it work out, but then again France (which has a small Catalan area as well as other minority 'national' groups) might seek to get the EU to put pressure in the opposite direction.

None of this, of course, suggests that Catalonia should become independent, particularly as the Catalan people have not yet had a proper chance to make their views known.

[Bee]

The people putting pieces of paper are breaking the law, as the vote has been declared illegal

In a democracy, the constitution and the laws are made by the population. How many laws in the world were broken and changed to express the desire of the population?

After 60 years under the Spanish rules with disastrous results, Portugal broke the law fighting to be an independent country again and Spain didn't recognize it.

Portugal broke the law in 25 of April in 1975 by refusing to continue under a dictatorship.

Catalunha wanted to do a referendum in peace and was beaten by the Police, in a democracy who broke the law?

[BlasterBates]

Catalonia want to stay part of the EU in spite of the fact that they're rebelling against the EU. So whatever arrangement they come up with Spain won't make much difference.

[Bee]

Yes, the Spanish government has shot itself in the foot with its cretinous response.

Yes and the Catalans who were undecided, now they certainly vote for the independence.

If a majority of Catalans don't support independence, the best thing to have done would be to ignore it.

We don't know that, apparently the majority support independence due to the reaction, but we only have sure with a referendum and let the people vote.

Good to know that our government doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity.

Interesting to note that Catalonia certainly doesn't want to leave the EU.

The problem is that the population could not be aware of the consequences but it's another story.

[SimonMac]

Catalonia want to stay part of the EU in spite of the fact that they're rebelling against the EU. So whatever arrangement they come up with Spain won't make much difference.

Spain will block any admission of Cataloina to the EU, it's a non starter, to change the rules against all members agreeing to new members would need Spain to agree to the changes that are in place to negate Spain from stopping new members, so you can guess how that will go.